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From: JPW on 21 Mar 2010 13:25
There are four referees (David, Malcolm, John and Peter) who used to
reply to this group and if you are all still watching I would
appreciate your opinions of the following. It is basically to do with
rabbit burrows, rule 25 and its associated Decisions.

If a ball runs into a rabbit burrow and is underground then the
following is stated.
25-1b/23 deals with a ball entering a burrow and coming to rest OOB
25-1b/24 deals with a ball entering a burrow OOB and coming to rest in
bounds
25-1b/25 deals with a ball entering a burrow and coming to rest under
a putting green

All three take as their point of reference the nearest point of relief
which is vertically above the position of the underground ball with
the exception of /25 which rightly states that the position must be
further determined to remove it from the putting green from the point
previously found.

I have no problems with any of these but I read the new Decision this
year 25-1b/25.5 and I copy it below.

25–1b/25.5
Application of Exception to Rule 25–1b When Ball Lies Underground in
Burrowing Animal Hole
Q Through the green, a player’s ball comes to rest underground in a
hole made
by a burrowing animal. A large bush is immediately next to and
overhanging the
entrance to the hole. Given the Exception to Rule 25–1b, is the player
entitled to relief
without penalty from the burrowing animal hole?
A FOR THE PURPOSE OF APPLYING THE EXCEPTION TO RULE 25-1b A BALL LYING
UNDERGROUND IN A BURROWING ANIMAL HOLE IS DEEMED TO LIE AT THE
ENTRANCE TO THE HOLE.
If the nature of the area surrounding the entrance to the hole is such
that it is clearly unreasonable for the player to make a stroke at a
ball lying at any part of the entrance to the hole (e.g. because of
the overhanging bush), the player is not entitled to relief without
penalty under Rule 25–1b. Otherwise, the player is entitled to relief
without penalty under Rule 25–1b.
If the ball lies in a hole, but is not underground, it is the position
of the ball, rather
than the entrance to the hole, which is relevant in determining
whether the Exception
to Rule 25–1b applies. (New)

I have CAPITALISED the phrase that puzzles me. Why is the point of
reference at the entrance of the hole contrary to its actual position
as is the case with the other three?

Sorry that it is a bit long.

Pat
From: M L Wadsworth on 22 Mar 2010 05:31

"JPW" <pat.jpwil(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:75135135-1ce1-4ed0-950e-81ccd134fbc9(a)j21g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
There are four referees (David, Malcolm, John and Peter) who used to
reply to this group and if you are all still watching I would
appreciate your opinions of the following. It is basically to do with
rabbit burrows, rule 25 and its associated Decisions.

If a ball runs into a rabbit burrow and is underground then the
following is stated.
25-1b/23 deals with a ball entering a burrow and coming to rest OOB
25-1b/24 deals with a ball entering a burrow OOB and coming to rest in
bounds
25-1b/25 deals with a ball entering a burrow and coming to rest under
a putting green

All three take as their point of reference the nearest point of relief
which is vertically above the position of the underground ball with
the exception of /25 which rightly states that the position must be
further determined to remove it from the putting green from the point
previously found.

I have no problems with any of these but I read the new Decision this
year 25-1b/25.5 and I copy it below.

25�1b/25.5
Application of Exception to Rule 25�1b When Ball Lies Underground in
Burrowing Animal Hole
Q Through the green, a player�s ball comes to rest underground in a
hole made
by a burrowing animal. A large bush is immediately next to and
overhanging the
entrance to the hole. Given the Exception to Rule 25�1b, is the player
entitled to relief
without penalty from the burrowing animal hole?
A FOR THE PURPOSE OF APPLYING THE EXCEPTION TO RULE 25-1b A BALL LYING
UNDERGROUND IN A BURROWING ANIMAL HOLE IS DEEMED TO LIE AT THE
ENTRANCE TO THE HOLE.
If the nature of the area surrounding the entrance to the hole is such
that it is clearly unreasonable for the player to make a stroke at a
ball lying at any part of the entrance to the hole (e.g. because of
the overhanging bush), the player is not entitled to relief without
penalty under Rule 25�1b. Otherwise, the player is entitled to relief
without penalty under Rule 25�1b.
If the ball lies in a hole, but is not underground, it is the position
of the ball, rather
than the entrance to the hole, which is relevant in determining
whether the Exception
to Rule 25�1b applies. (New)

I have CAPITALISED the phrase that puzzles me. Why is the point of
reference at the entrance of the hole contrary to its actual position
as is the case with the other three?

Sorry that it is a bit long.

Pat

Pat,
The key words are the very ones you have capitalised:
"for the purpose of applying the exception"

25-1b/25.5 is not saying the ball lies other than where it is. It is only
deeming it to lie at the entrance to the hole for the purpose of deciding
whether the player is entitled to relief.
If there was a bush at the entrance to the hole but it was ruled that the
player could have made a stroke at his ball had it been at rest where the
hole was, then he would get relief, determining his nearest point of relief
from the point on the course immediately above where the ball actually lies.

Regards,
Malcolm



From: JPW on 23 Mar 2010 08:37
On 22 Mar, 09:31, "M L Wadsworth"
<CUTmalTHEcolmwadswo...(a)btintCACKLEernet.com> wrote:
> "JPW" <pat.jp...(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:75135135-1ce1-4ed0-950e-81ccd134fbc9(a)j21g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> There are four referees (David, Malcolm, John and Peter) who used to
> reply to this group and if you are all still watching I would
> appreciate your opinions of the following. It is basically to do with
> rabbit burrows, rule 25 and its associated Decisions.
>
> If a ball runs into a rabbit burrow and is underground then the
> following is stated.
> 25-1b/23 deals with a ball entering a burrow and coming to rest OOB
> 25-1b/24 deals with a ball entering a burrow OOB and coming to rest in
> bounds
> 25-1b/25 deals with a ball entering a burrow and coming to rest under
> a putting green
>
> All three take as their point of reference the nearest point of relief
> which is vertically above the position of the underground ball with
> the exception of /25 which rightly states that the position must be
> further determined to remove it from the putting green from the point
> previously found.
>
> I have no problems with any of these but I read the new Decision this
> year 25-1b/25.5  and I copy it below.
>
> 25–1b/25.5
> Application of Exception to Rule 25–1b When Ball Lies Underground in
> Burrowing Animal Hole
> Q Through the green, a player’s ball comes to rest underground in a
> hole made
> by a burrowing animal. A large bush is immediately next to and
> overhanging the
> entrance to the hole. Given the Exception to Rule 25–1b, is the player
> entitled to relief
> without penalty from the burrowing animal hole?
> A FOR THE PURPOSE OF APPLYING THE EXCEPTION TO RULE 25-1b A BALL LYING
> UNDERGROUND IN A BURROWING ANIMAL HOLE IS DEEMED TO LIE AT THE
> ENTRANCE TO THE HOLE.
> If the nature of the area surrounding the entrance to the hole is such
> that it is clearly unreasonable for the player to make a stroke at a
> ball lying at any part of the entrance to the hole (e.g. because of
> the overhanging bush), the player is not entitled to relief without
> penalty under Rule 25–1b. Otherwise, the player is entitled to relief
> without penalty under Rule 25–1b.
> If the ball lies in a hole, but is not underground, it is the position
> of the ball, rather
> than the entrance to the hole, which is relevant in determining
> whether the Exception
> to Rule 25–1b applies. (New)
>
> I have CAPITALISED the phrase that puzzles me. Why is the point of
> reference at the entrance of the hole contrary to its actual position
> as is the case with the other three?
>
> Sorry that it is a bit long.
>
> Pat
>
> Pat,
> The key words are the very ones you have capitalised:
> "for the purpose of applying the exception"
>
> 25-1b/25.5 is not saying the ball lies other than where it is.  It is only
> deeming it to lie at the entrance to the hole for the purpose of deciding
> whether the player is entitled to relief.
> If there was a bush at the entrance to the hole but it was ruled that the
> player could have made a stroke at his ball had it been at rest where the
> hole was, then he would get relief, determining his nearest point of relief
> from the point on the course immediately above where the ball actually lies.
>
> Regards,
> Malcolm

Despite the three answers (Thanks for them gents) I am still puzzled

Taking your answer, Malcolm, I first quote the definition of a stroke
as “A forward movement of the club with the intention etc.” I can make
a stroke at a ball at any position on the course!!! It may well be
obstructed by branches but still I can make that forward movement,
even in a rabbit scrape. So why the point of reference changes because
the judgement of others (not me, the player) say that the stroke must
be an unobstructed one at a point where the ball ISN’T lying, is still
difficult to comprehend.

I am thinking largely here about a club golfer in a monthly medal with
no referees, rules officials, perhaps way out on the right very much
on his own who happens to know the other three Decisions and their
points of reference. He is almost certainly going to get it wrong.

Regards

Pat
From: M L Wadsworth on 23 Mar 2010 16:05

"JPW" <pat.jpwil(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:2e4d03b7-9d40-4ba5-a969-77d1f13e7657(a)d27g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
On 22 Mar, 09:31, "M L Wadsworth"
<CUTmalTHEcolmwadswo...(a)btintCACKLEernet.com> wrote:
> "JPW" <pat.jp...(a)googlemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:75135135-1ce1-4ed0-950e-81ccd134fbc9(a)j21g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

>snip>
>
> Pat,
> The key words are the very ones you have capitalised:
> "for the purpose of applying the exception"
>
> 25-1b/25.5 is not saying the ball lies other than where it is. It is only
> deeming it to lie at the entrance to the hole for the purpose of deciding
> whether the player is entitled to relief.
> If there was a bush at the entrance to the hole but it was ruled that the
> player could have made a stroke at his ball had it been at rest where the
> hole was, then he would get relief, determining his nearest point of
> relief
> from the point on the course immediately above where the ball actually
> lies.
>
> Regards,
> Malcolm

Despite the three answers (Thanks for them gents) I am still puzzled

Taking your answer, Malcolm, I first quote the definition of a stroke
as �A forward movement of the club with the intention etc.� I can make
a stroke at a ball at any position on the course!!! It may well be
obstructed by branches but still I can make that forward movement,
even in a rabbit scrape. So why the point of reference changes because
the judgement of others (not me, the player) say that the stroke must
be an unobstructed one at a point where the ball ISN�T lying, is still
difficult to comprehend.

I am thinking largely here about a club golfer in a monthly medal with
no referees, rules officials, perhaps way out on the right very much
on his own who happens to know the other three Decisions and their
points of reference. He is almost certainly going to get it wrong.

Regards

Pat

Pat,
We are moving into different territory if we debate the application of the
exception to 24-2 and 25-1b.
It is a difficult one for referees and even more so for the club golfer.
It is difficult because we are not talking "unplayable": that is at the sole
discretion of the player: we are talking of "clearly unreasonable to make a
stroke".
My personal test is if the player were to make a stroke at the ball is there
a possibility he could move it to a position no worse than if he proceeded
under the Unplayable Ball Rule, but other referees may have their own
opinions.
A player will often ask for a second opinion if relief is denied because of
the Exception.

The new Decision has not changed the Exception or its application and refers
only to a ball lying underground and where it is not vertically below the
entrance to the hole where it entered.
It is not true that at the entrance to the hole, a stroke by the player must
be an unobstructed one.
25-1b/25.5 uses the words of the Exception.
Maybe you are visualising overhanging branches (not a bush) as leaving room
to make a stroke at the ball, whereas you perhaps should be visualisng a
hole deep into a gorse bush or brambles where you cannot get close enough to
be able to strike the ball.

The decision works both ways. There may be a tree immediately above the
ball and the entrance to the hole may be unobstructed by the tree.
Relief would be allowed.
The nearest point of relief is still immediately above the ball but a
club-length may give him the relief he needs from the tree.

HTH,

Malcolm


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