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From: david s-a on 14 Oct 2008 19:03
John Turner wrote:

>
> David,
>
> For accuracy sake, the ball has to be replaced and not placed. If the spot
> on which it has to be replaced can be determined, it can be replaced by
> either the player, his partner or the person who moved it.

John,

I know this! However, for the benefit of players not so conversant with
the details I should draw attention to Decision 20-3a/0.5 which
overrides any rule that implies that the ball should be placed or
replaced by the player himself, and permits the player, or his partner,
or the person who lifted or moved the ball to replace it.

For accuracy sake I AM referring to the rule (R15-3a & b)...and my
Rule/Decisions book clearly says 'place'! (I concede of course that this
implies 'replace' as well as 'place', ie 'put it back'...but the Rule
does not say that!).

If the spot on
> which it has to be replaced cannot be accurately determined - RCGA standard
> is within a thumbnail

(really...a little bit tight fisted I think given the alternative
procedure of dropping the ball anyway?)

- then the ball has to be dropped as near as possible
> to where it lay, and when a ball has to be dropped it must be dropped by the
> player himself.

This is arguable....suggesting that dropping the ball instead of
'placing' it is not an act of 'replacing' the ball in accordance with
Rule 15-3...thereby eliminating the overriding influence of Decision
20-3a/0.5. It is a question of interpretation of the word 'replace' and
using it in proper context. Are you putting the ball back on the spot,
or as close as possible to the spot as can be estimated? Both are acts
of 'replacing' the ball to be in play whether 'placing' the ball or
'dropping' the ball. (If I replace lost or stolen property it doesn't
mean I am necessarily going to put it back where it lay, it just means I
am going to replaces its utility...doesn't it?)

Just food for thought.
:-)

cheers
david
From: John Turner on 15 Oct 2008 16:05

"david s-a" <dsantwyk(a)bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:6lkmptFcs8tfU1(a)mid.individual.net...
> John Turner wrote:
>
>>
>> David,
>>
>> For accuracy sake, the ball has to be replaced and not placed. If the
>> spot on which it has to be replaced can be determined, it can be replaced
>> by either the player, his partner or the person who moved it.
>
> John,
>
> I know this! However, for the benefit of players not so conversant with
> the details I should draw attention to Decision 20-3a/0.5 which overrides
> any rule that implies that the ball should be placed or replaced by the
> player himself, and permits the player, or his partner, or the person who
> lifted or moved the ball to replace it.
>
> For accuracy sake I AM referring to the rule (R15-3a & b)...and my
> Rule/Decisions book clearly says 'place'! (I concede of course that this
> implies 'replace' as well as 'place', ie 'put it back'...but the Rule does
> not say that!).
>
> If the spot on
>> which it has to be replaced cannot be accurately determined - RCGA
>> standard is within a thumbnail
>
> (really...a little bit tight fisted I think given the alternative
> procedure of dropping the ball anyway?)
>
> - then the ball has to be dropped as near as possible
>> to where it lay, and when a ball has to be dropped it must be dropped by
>> the player himself.
>
> This is arguable....suggesting that dropping the ball instead of 'placing'
> it is not an act of 'replacing' the ball in accordance with Rule
> 15-3...thereby eliminating the overriding influence of Decision 20-3a/0.5.
> It is a question of interpretation of the word 'replace' and using it in
> proper context. Are you putting the ball back on the spot, or as close as
> possible to the spot as can be estimated? Both are acts of 'replacing' the
> ball to be in play whether 'placing' the ball or 'dropping' the ball. (If
> I replace lost or stolen property it doesn't mean I am necessarily going
> to put it back where it lay, it just means I am going to replaces its
> utility...doesn't it?)
>
> Just food for thought.
> :-)
>
> cheers
> david

David,

The reason that 15-3b uses place is because it says "place a ball on the
spot". We place a ball, but replace the ball, as you well know. After that
is clear, I rely totally on "Rule 20-3c Spot not determinable" when either
placing or replacing for my position on the matter. It says "spot", not a
nearby spot. If you can't accurately place a new ball, or replace the
original ball, on the spot from which the original ball was played in error,
then you must drop. If the Ruling bodies were prepared to accept an
estimated spot they would have said so.

We should probably end here before we bore the other folks top death!!

Cheers

JohnT





From: david s-a on 15 Oct 2008 17:27
John Turner wrote:
> "david s-a" <dsantwyk(a)bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
> news:6lkmptFcs8tfU1(a)mid.individual.net...
>> John Turner wrote:
>>
>>> David,
>>>
>>> For accuracy sake, the ball has to be replaced and not placed. If the
>>> spot on which it has to be replaced can be determined, it can be replaced
>>> by either the player, his partner or the person who moved it.
>> John,
>>
>> I know this! However, for the benefit of players not so conversant with
>> the details I should draw attention to Decision 20-3a/0.5 which overrides
>> any rule that implies that the ball should be placed or replaced by the
>> player himself, and permits the player, or his partner, or the person who
>> lifted or moved the ball to replace it.
>>
>> For accuracy sake I AM referring to the rule (R15-3a & b)...and my
>> Rule/Decisions book clearly says 'place'! (I concede of course that this
>> implies 'replace' as well as 'place', ie 'put it back'...but the Rule does
>> not say that!).
>>
>> If the spot on
>>> which it has to be replaced cannot be accurately determined - RCGA
>>> standard is within a thumbnail
>> (really...a little bit tight fisted I think given the alternative
>> procedure of dropping the ball anyway?)
>>
>> - then the ball has to be dropped as near as possible
>>> to where it lay, and when a ball has to be dropped it must be dropped by
>>> the player himself.
>> This is arguable....suggesting that dropping the ball instead of 'placing'
>> it is not an act of 'replacing' the ball in accordance with Rule
>> 15-3...thereby eliminating the overriding influence of Decision 20-3a/0.5.
>> It is a question of interpretation of the word 'replace' and using it in
>> proper context. Are you putting the ball back on the spot, or as close as
>> possible to the spot as can be estimated? Both are acts of 'replacing' the
>> ball to be in play whether 'placing' the ball or 'dropping' the ball. (If
>> I replace lost or stolen property it doesn't mean I am necessarily going
>> to put it back where it lay, it just means I am going to replaces its
>> utility...doesn't it?)
>>
>> Just food for thought.
>> :-)
>>
>> cheers
>> david
>
> David,
>
> The reason that 15-3b uses place is because it says "place a ball on the
> spot". We place a ball, but replace the ball, as you well know. After that
> is clear, I rely totally on "Rule 20-3c Spot not determinable" when either
> placing or replacing for my position on the matter. It says "spot", not a
> nearby spot. If you can't accurately place a new ball, or replace the
> original ball, on the spot from which the original ball was played in error,
> then you must drop. If the Ruling bodies were prepared to accept an
> estimated spot they would have said so.
>
> We should probably end here before we bore the other folks top death!!
>
> Cheers
>
> JohnT
>
>
>
>
>
Fair 'nuff John!

I missed the subtle convention of 'a ball' and 'the ball' in the
selection of the words 'place' and 'replace'......this does clarify
things somewhat! I must have missed that page during life's lessons!

cheers
david
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