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From: Dave Robinson on 13 Oct 2008 05:33
I'm sure there is an easy answer to this one, but I'm not sure where to
look.

This happened on Sunday in a (friendly) 4BBB match - as it was friendly it
didn't really matter and the outcome wasn't affected anyway, but I'd like to
know the correct action should it ever happen again in a more serious game.

On a par-5, one of my opponents searched for his ball for a while, then
spotted a ball about 20 yards further on than expected, walked up to it,
noticed it was a Titleist, and without checking any further, played that
ball as his.

I thought my ball was a further 20-30 yards further on than that and spent
my 5 minutes searching for my own ball to no avail. At that point I gave up
as my partner was (at that point) in reasonable shape in 2 and even if I'd
found my ball I would have been playing 3.

Next, my opponent walked up towards the green to where he had hit, looked at
the ball again and spotted my markings on the ball. He realised he had
played my ball instead.

I had already given up (I think I could have gone back and played from where
he had hit my ball), but time pressure and the fact it was only a friendly
made me give up the hole, and he knew he couldn't continue on that hole too.

Unfortunately, his partner (my other opponent) subsequently "won" the hole.

Should his team have lost the hole or is it only the person who played the
wrong ball that is disqualified from the hole?

As I said, it ultimately didn't matter because we went on to win the match
anyway, but the loss of that hole could have made a difference.

Dave

PS - I know this will infuriate some people, but we also play an individual
stableford contest amongst ourselves for a couple of quid. I know that one
shouldn't mix and match strokeplay and matchplay formats, as the rules apply
differently to the two formats, but as I said, it is all just a friendly
Sunday 4-ball amongst friends. Naturally I didn't score on that hole which
maybe cost me the stableford result too - but that was all laughed off in
the bar afterwards.


From: John Turner on 13 Oct 2008 09:48

"Dave Robinson" <dhr1000(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gcv4lv$aq9$1(a)nntp.fujitsu-siemens.com...
> I'm sure there is an easy answer to this one, but I'm not sure where to
> look.
>
> This happened on Sunday in a (friendly) 4BBB match - as it was friendly it
> didn't really matter and the outcome wasn't affected anyway, but I'd like
> to know the correct action should it ever happen again in a more serious
> game.
>
> On a par-5, one of my opponents searched for his ball for a while, then
> spotted a ball about 20 yards further on than expected, walked up to it,
> noticed it was a Titleist, and without checking any further, played that
> ball as his.
>
> I thought my ball was a further 20-30 yards further on than that and spent
> my 5 minutes searching for my own ball to no avail. At that point I gave
> up as my partner was (at that point) in reasonable shape in 2 and even if
> I'd found my ball I would have been playing 3.
>
> Next, my opponent walked up towards the green to where he had hit, looked
> at the ball again and spotted my markings on the ball. He realised he had
> played my ball instead.
>
> I had already given up (I think I could have gone back and played from
> where he had hit my ball), but time pressure and the fact it was only a
> friendly made me give up the hole, and he knew he couldn't continue on
> that hole too.
>
> Unfortunately, his partner (my other opponent) subsequently "won" the
> hole.
>
> Should his team have lost the hole or is it only the person who played the
> wrong ball that is disqualified from the hole?
>
> As I said, it ultimately didn't matter because we went on to win the match
> anyway, but the loss of that hole could have made a difference.
>
> Dave
>
> PS - I know this will infuriate some people, but we also play an
> individual stableford contest amongst ourselves for a couple of quid. I
> know that one shouldn't mix and match strokeplay and matchplay formats, as
> the rules apply differently to the two formats, but as I said, it is all
> just a friendly Sunday 4-ball amongst friends. Naturally I didn't score on
> that hole which maybe cost me the stableford result too - but that was all
> laughed off in the bar afterwards.
>
Dave,

Decision 27/6 gives you the unfortunate news that because five minutes had
elapsed since you begun your search, you had a lost ball and were required
to put another ball into play under a stroke and distance penalty if you
wished to have a score on the hole. As this was four-ball, you chose not to
and your partner's score had to count. The opponent who played your ball had
played a wrong ball and was disqualified from the hole. As his action did
not affect his partner's play, the partner's score counted and they won the
hole. Rule 30-3c

In your infuriating singles Stableford contest, which is only infuriating if
it is not match play. I shall assume from your comment that it was not match
play. You are disqualified for the hole for failing to hole out, and had
zero points, while your opponent initially incurred a two stroke penalty for
playing a wrong ball and was then subsequently disqualified for the hole
because he did not correct the error.

Cheers

JohnT


From: Dave Robinson on 13 Oct 2008 10:04
> Dave,
>
> Decision 27/6 gives you the unfortunate news that because five minutes had
> elapsed since you begun your search, you had a lost ball and were required
> to put another ball into play under a stroke and distance penalty if you
> wished to have a score on the hole. As this was four-ball, you chose not
> to and your partner's score had to count. The opponent who played your
> ball had played a wrong ball and was disqualified from the hole. As his
> action did not affect his partner's play, the partner's score counted and
> they won the hole. Rule 30-3c
>
> In your infuriating singles Stableford contest, which is only infuriating
> if it is not match play. I shall assume from your comment that it was not
> match play. You are disqualified for the hole for failing to hole out, and
> had zero points, while your opponent initially incurred a two stroke
> penalty for playing a wrong ball and was then subsequently disqualified
> for the hole because he did not correct the error.

Thank you John. Clear and concise as always :-)

I am a little surprised by part of your answer, and had time allowed, I
would have proceeded incorrectly myself.
I was under the impression that had time allowed (and I felt so inclined), I
could have gone back to play my shot from where my opponent had incorrectly
played my ball. You answer seems to imply that because I spent 5 minutes
looking for my ball (which was now a further 200 yards up the fairway), my
only option (other than abandoning as I did) was to go back and play again
under stroke and distance penalty. Am I reading that right? Not wishing to
"shoot the messenger" but that seems rather unfair...

Your second paragraph was correct - it was strokeplay stableford (combined
with matchplay - slap my wrists now) *grin* .. we did in fact proceed the
way you describe with both of us failing to score on that hole.

Incidentally, another thing happened on the previous green which maybe
displays the rather less than serious nature of the "match" we were playing.

The greens had been hollow-tined a couple of weeks ago and still had
recovering indentations. I had a (maybe) 2.5 foot putt on the previous green
to halve the hole, and after I had replaced my ball and lifted the marker,
but BEFORE I had fully addressed the ball and grounded the club, the ball
toppled into an indentation. I stood up and told them that as I understood
it, I had to replace the ball in its original position under no penalty. I
was roundly jeered and told to "get on with it" and play it from the
indentation. Under much pressure, I missed the putt!

If my understanding is right, I should have been penalised for not replacing
the ball, but they should have been hung drawn and quartered for such
ungentlemanly conduct ;-)

Seriously, it was all good natured banter and no one died. Caused some quite
riotous conversations back in the bar though :-)


From: John Turner on 13 Oct 2008 11:28

"Dave Robinson" <dhr1000(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gcvki0$7oh$1(a)nntp.fujitsu-siemens.com...
>> Dave,
>>
>> Decision 27/6 gives you the unfortunate news that because five minutes
>> had elapsed since you begun your search, you had a lost ball and were
>> required to put another ball into play under a stroke and distance
>> penalty if you wished to have a score on the hole. As this was four-ball,
>> you chose not to and your partner's score had to count. The opponent who
>> played your ball had played a wrong ball and was disqualified from the
>> hole. As his action did not affect his partner's play, the partner's
>> score counted and they won the hole. Rule 30-3c
>>
>> In your infuriating singles Stableford contest, which is only infuriating
>> if it is not match play. I shall assume from your comment that it was not
>> match play. You are disqualified for the hole for failing to hole out,
>> and had zero points, while your opponent initially incurred a two stroke
>> penalty for playing a wrong ball and was then subsequently disqualified
>> for the hole because he did not correct the error.
>
> Thank you John. Clear and concise as always :-)
>
> I am a little surprised by part of your answer, and had time allowed, I
> would have proceeded incorrectly myself.
> I was under the impression that had time allowed (and I felt so inclined),
> I could have gone back to play my shot from where my opponent had
> incorrectly played my ball. You answer seems to imply that because I spent
> 5 minutes looking for my ball (which was now a further 200 yards up the
> fairway), my only option (other than abandoning as I did) was to go back
> and play again under stroke and distance penalty. Am I reading that right?
> Not wishing to "shoot the messenger" but that seems rather unfair...
>
> Your second paragraph was correct - it was strokeplay stableford (combined
> with matchplay - slap my wrists now) *grin* .. we did in fact proceed the
> way you describe with both of us failing to score on that hole.
>
> Incidentally, another thing happened on the previous green which maybe
> displays the rather less than serious nature of the "match" we were
> playing.
>
> The greens had been hollow-tined a couple of weeks ago and still had
> recovering indentations. I had a (maybe) 2.5 foot putt on the previous
> green to halve the hole, and after I had replaced my ball and lifted the
> marker, but BEFORE I had fully addressed the ball and grounded the club,
> the ball toppled into an indentation. I stood up and told them that as I
> understood it, I had to replace the ball in its original position under no
> penalty. I was roundly jeered and told to "get on with it" and play it
> from the indentation. Under much pressure, I missed the putt!
>
> If my understanding is right, I should have been penalised for not
> replacing the ball, but they should have been hung drawn and quartered for
> such ungentlemanly conduct ;-)
>
> Seriously, it was all good natured banter and no one died. Caused some
> quite riotous conversations back in the bar though :-)
Dave,

In your original post you stated that you used up your five minutes, and so
I didn't embelish on what could have happened had the five minutes not
elapsed. If because you found your opponent's ball you now believed that he
had played your ball, and the five minutes had not elapsed, you would have
been allowed to go forward to identify your ball, retrieve it and drop it at
the spot from where he had played it. It is my contention, disputed by some,
that the time taken to go forward to identify the ball would not have been
impacted by the five minute limit providing that the five minutes had not
elapsed before you started the journey to retrieve the ball. The essence of
the Decision that I quoted remains unchanged, i.e. if your ball is not found
within five minutes of having begun the search for it, it is lost, even if
the only reason that you cannot find it is that someone else has played it.
Harsh but true.

On the putting green issue, you have to determine if you caused the ball to
move - you already say that you had not addressed it.

If you did not cause the ball to move, you should have played it from its
new position without penalty. Replacing it means that you have lifted your
ball in play incurring a one stroke penalty and having to replace it at the
new position, and failure to do that results in a total of a two stroke
penalty for playing from a wrong place.

If you did cause the ball to move, you incurred a one stroke penalty and had
to replace it at the original position, and failure to do so will again
result in a total of a two stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place.


From: Dave Robinson on 13 Oct 2008 11:37
> On the putting green issue, you have to determine if you caused the ball
> to move - you already say that you had not addressed it.
>
> If you did not cause the ball to move, you should have played it from its
> new position without penalty. Replacing it means that you have lifted your
> ball in play incurring a one stroke penalty and having to replace it at
> the new position, and failure to do that results in a total of a two
> stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place.
>
> If you did cause the ball to move, you incurred a one stroke penalty and
> had to replace it at the original position, and failure to do so will
> again result in a total of a two stroke penalty for playing from a wrong
> place.

So I would have got that one wrong also - and the barrackers were correct!

Doesn't excuse their disgraceful behaviour though. Still what should I
expect when playing two rowdy jocks in a grudge Eng/Sco match.

All grievances were settled amicably later in the bar after several beers
though ;-)


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