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From: M L Wadsworth on 10 Mar 2010 12:30

"Paul Schmitz-Josten" <alossola(a)web.de> wrote in message
news:hn7nkn$o2$02$1(a)news.t-online.com...
>M L Wadsworth in <EM6dnS9awsi23QrWnZ2dnUVZ7oydnZ2d(a)bt.com>:
>
>>Interesting name: I have not heard that format called a Chapman Foursome
>>before.
>>
>>I have always known it as a Rye Foursome.
>>
>>What part of the world are you in?
>
> I don't want to speak for AS but from the news path he might live in the
> Netherlands.
>
> Chapman Foursome ("Vierer") is also the term used in Germany.
> Furtheron we know the variations "classic foursome" (only one ball per
> team
> as covered by the RoG) and "foursome with selected drive" (ball selection
> after both have teed off, "greensome" in English).
>
>snip>
>
> Does this imply that provisionals are possible after the (first) tee shots
> when there is no obligation to chose a ball?
>
>
> Anyway, when playing _and_selecting_ the provisional ball the team will be
> punished with stroke&distance, making it a costly choice to abandon the
> "good" ball (B's ball in the example) unless it is in a very bad lie, for
> example in the rough or a water hazard.
>
>
> And while we talk about non-standard games on the course, look at this:
> <http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7402115.html>
> It's a US patent!
>
> C<huckling>iao,
>
> Paul

Thank you Paul for the background on Chapman Foursomes


> Does this imply that provisional are possible after the (first) tee shots
> when there is no obligation to chose a ball?

In my opinion, the logical answer must be yes.
A would play a provisional ball for his ball and B would play a provisional
ball for his ball.
The provisional ball only becomes the second stroke played (score of 3) if
the original ball is not found.
But we must remember we are making up our own Rules for Chapman Foursomes.

Regards,
Malcolm
With reference to the US Patent :-)
- golfers in the USA have the awful habit of calling a four-ball a foursome.




From: Paul Schmitz-Josten on 10 Mar 2010 13:38
M L Wadsworth in <oeqdnSVG9NzeSgrWnZ2dnUVZ8kydnZ2d(a)bt.com>:

>> Does this imply that provisional are possible after the (first) tee shots
>> when there is no obligation to chose a ball?
>
>In my opinion, the logical answer must be yes.
>A would play a provisional ball for his ball and B would play a provisional
>ball for his ball.

No question when both balls may be lost; I was aiming at a situation with
one ball affected - different judgement?

>But we must remember we are making up our own Rules for Chapman Foursomes.

This becomes clearer from minute to minute, though many will consider
_their_ set of rules universally valid.

>With reference to the US Patent :-)
>- golfers in the USA have the awful habit of calling a four-ball a foursome.

This may have changed when I come to play there ;->

Ciao,

Paul
From: AS on 10 Mar 2010 17:25
M L Wadsworth wrote:
> Interesting name: I have not heard that format called a Chapman Foursome
> before.
>
> I have always known it as a Rye Foursome.
>
> What part of the world are you in?
>

1. In the Yorkshire part of Holland....!
2. Chapman foursomes hail from the good ol' US of A
(turf.lib.msu.edu/1950s/1954/540620.pdf)
3. Hmmm.. well, afaiac, the team played an 'honest process' i.e. A said
'Well I've hit my ball forward - might be lost, might not. I'll play B's
ball provisionally and if we find my ball, however awful its position,
it's the ball in play.' Seems analagous to any other sort of provisional
ball EXCEPT there was no stated acceptance of a possible penalty
(because we didn't think off it!!).

It kept the 19th gassing for ages which is, of course, the point of
golf.....

AS
From: david s-a on 12 Mar 2010 04:25
We call it Chapman Fours here...Oz!

cheers
david




AS wrote:
> We were playing a Chapman foursome (each player drives, plays a second
> shot, the team select the best ball and play alternately thereafter).
> Good fun on a damp day!
>
> Anyhow, A and B drove and played their respective second shots. B's did
> not go far whilst A's was walloped and headed into the distance but
> disappeared. A then stood over B's ball and said "Shall I play this
> provisionally to save time?" conscious of the traffic behind us. He did
> so. A's ball was found and duly played.
>
> The massed wisdom (?) in the 19th deduced that this was proper but,
> having declared a shot provisional, the team was bound to play A's ball
> if it was found.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> AS
From: M L Wadsworth on 12 Mar 2010 05:25

"AS" <as(a)ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8%Uln.271423$kR2.51842(a)newsfe05.ams2...
>M L Wadsworth wrote:
>> Interesting name: I have not heard that format called a Chapman Foursome
>> before.
>>
>> I have always known it as a Rye Foursome.
>>
>> What part of the world are you in?
>>
>
> 1. In the Yorkshire part of Holland....!
> 2. Chapman foursomes hail from the good ol' US of A
> (turf.lib.msu.edu/1950s/1954/540620.pdf)
> 3. Hmmm.. well, afaiac, the team played an 'honest process' i.e. A said
> 'Well I've hit my ball forward - might be lost, might not. I'll play B's
> ball provisionally and if we find my ball, however awful its position,
> it's the ball in play.' Seems analagous to any other sort of provisional
> ball EXCEPT there was no stated acceptance of a possible penalty (because
> we didn't think off it!!).
>
> It kept the 19th gassing for ages which is, of course, the point of
> golf.....
>
> AS

The problem is that A did not put B's ball into play: it was already a ball
in play.

Both players had played their second strokes and the time had come to make a
selection.

The side's choices were:

a) select B's ball;

b) select A's ball;

c) select A's ball but in case it becomes a ball lost or out of bounds,
get B to drop and play a provisional ball at the spot where A played his
second stroke.



What actually happened was that the side delayed their selection until they
saw the outcome of A's stroke at B's ball.



Imagine there had not been a possibility of A's ball being lost outside a
water hazard. It was either on the closely mown area before or just beyond
a drainage ditch (water hazard) that crosses the fairway before the putting
green but was out of view when standing at B's ball.

Would you really allow the side, after A played B's ball and hit it into the
drainage ditch, to now abandon B's ball and continue with A's ball when
they find that it had crossed the ditch and was lying on the putting green?



Malcolm


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