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From: JPW on 10 Jan 2010 09:01 On 9 Jan, 20:20, david s-a <dsant...(a)bigpond.net.au> wrote: > JPW wrote: > > David, > > > Thanks for your response. You touch on one of the points under > > discussion. In the following paragraph you describe 'the place' > > perfectly and your reason for commencing timing at the time stated is > > without question. > > > In my view, 'the place where the original ball is likely to be' is > > the > > place where any of the the player's side, including his/their > > caddies, > > start looking for it. When observing play this where I start timing. > > > In your next paragraph (below) you follow 27-2b exactly by using > > **from this place**. > > How many times as a referee, and in your private play, have you seen a > > provisional ball come to rest 'at this place'? > > 'Nearer the hole than this place' is quite an acceptable description > > of a point which contributes to making the provisional ball become the > > ball in play! > > Pat, > > If you want to put this to bed, at dinner last night I spoke with R&A > Director-Rules of Golf, Grant Moir, who is visiting Melbourne as part of > a Golf Australia Rules of Golf Workshop, and had joined us for the day > at the 'Vic Open'. > > I discussed this very point with him...he was perplexed at first, then > called for a Rule Book...then agreed that he saw our point. We finally > agreed that the phrase 'at this place' etc should really be read as > 'this area' etc...!!. As to 'how often do you see a provisional ball' > land in the same area as the original....the answer is 'quite often' in > my experience...it is not at all unusual. I complained that 'why should > a provisional ball played from that area' render the original ball > 'lost', when a provisional ball played from any other equidistant (from > the hole) point doesn't., and why does that particular part of the rule > exist anyway!' He was silent on that. > > He did share a story on an unusual situations submitted for a > 'decision', where a group of three elderly gentlemen had tee'd off and > having hit their balls into a suspect area all except one had played > provisionals. They went forward to search and the two with provisionals > found their balls while the third searched for the full five minute > period allowed and failed to find his ball. He returned to the tee and > on arriving he was surprised to find his ball sitting neatly on a tee on > the teeing ground. HE HAD FORGOTTEN TO PLAY HIS TEE SHOT!!!! > > So what was the ruling for a player who had searched five minutes for a > ball that he had not even put into play? It seems that in equity the R&A > expressed sympathy for the gentleman concerned, wrote him a kind letter > explaining that they were unable to find any reason to penalise > him...and asked him to keep his wits about him when on the teeing ground > in future!! > > cheers > david Thank you very much for the note above, David. It helps me to think that I may not have been nit-picking as one of my friends states (he is an affiliated referee here in the UK). I've just sent him a copy of your mail. I have absolutely no problem with 'this area' as opposed to 'this place' because it can only be an area that the second ball arrives at. Again I have no problem with a second ball arriving at a similar area, but 'place' ....ugh. You didn't happen to mention the other point about 'he' and 'it', did you or perhaps you might also think it nit picking? As for the story of the old fellow forgetting to hit his ball from the tee I could well relate to that. So many times I go home after an afternoon round and my missus says "Who did you play with today?" I always seem to have the devil of a job remembering all three names. She suffers me in silence probably waiting for the day when I cannot answer the question "And who am I?" Pat
From: JPW on 10 Jan 2010 11:47 On 9 Jan, 20:20, david s-a <dsant...(a)bigpond.net.au> wrote: > JPW wrote: > > David, > > > Thanks for your response. You touch on one of the points under > > discussion. In the following paragraph you describe 'the place' > > perfectly and your reason for commencing timing at the time stated is > > without question. > > > In my view, 'the place where the original ball is likely to be' is > > the > > place where any of the the player's side, including his/their > > caddies, > > start looking for it. When observing play this where I start timing. > > > In your next paragraph (below) you follow 27-2b exactly by using > > **from this place**. > > How many times as a referee, and in your private play, have you seen a > > provisional ball come to rest 'at this place'? > > 'Nearer the hole than this place' is quite an acceptable description > > of a point which contributes to making the provisional ball become the > > ball in play! > > Pat, > > If you want to put this to bed, at dinner last night I spoke with R&A > Director-Rules of Golf, Grant Moir, who is visiting Melbourne as part of > a Golf Australia Rules of Golf Workshop, and had joined us for the day > at the 'Vic Open'. > > I discussed this very point with him...he was perplexed at first, then > called for a Rule Book...then agreed that he saw our point. We finally > agreed that the phrase 'at this place' etc should really be read as > 'this area' etc...!!. As to 'how often do you see a provisional ball' > land in the same area as the original....the answer is 'quite often' in > my experience...it is not at all unusual. I complained that 'why should > a provisional ball played from that area' render the original ball > 'lost', when a provisional ball played from any other equidistant (from > the hole) point doesn't., and why does that particular part of the rule > exist anyway!' He was silent on that. > > He did share a story on an unusual situations submitted for a > 'decision', where a group of three elderly gentlemen had tee'd off and > having hit their balls into a suspect area all except one had played > provisionals. They went forward to search and the two with provisionals > found their balls while the third searched for the full five minute > period allowed and failed to find his ball. He returned to the tee and > on arriving he was surprised to find his ball sitting neatly on a tee on > the teeing ground. HE HAD FORGOTTEN TO PLAY HIS TEE SHOT!!!! > > So what was the ruling for a player who had searched five minutes for a > ball that he had not even put into play? It seems that in equity the R&A > expressed sympathy for the gentleman concerned, wrote him a kind letter > explaining that they were unable to find any reason to penalise > him...and asked him to keep his wits about him when on the teeing ground > in future!! > > cheers > david David, Thank you for taking the trouble to bring this point up to Mr. Moir. I have no problem at all in accepting 'the area' for 'the place' for, as I have previously said, for the provisional ball to be at the same place as the original is not possible. With area substituted it is of course very possible for the ball to arrive at 'the same area'. You didn't happen to discuss the 'he' and 'it' point that I raised too did you? As for the three old men playing I could well imagine myself to be the forgetful one for many is the time I go home for the missus to say to me ' Who did you play with?' Then I have a problem in remembering all three names. I suppose that she will start getting worried when I cannot give an answer to "Who am I?" if she happens to ask it. Regards Pat
From: Peter Strauss on 10 Jan 2010 11:57 david s-a wrote: ....and asked him to keep his wits about him when on the teeing ground > in future!! If I kept my wits about me when on the teeing ground, I'd immediately repair to the 19th hole. I credit my entire golfing career to a near-terminal loss of wits. p.
From: david s-a on 10 Jan 2010 16:28
JPW wrote: > On 9 Jan, 20:20, david s-a <dsant...(a)bigpond.net.au> wrote: >> JPW wrote: >>> David, >>> Thanks for your response. You touch on one of the points under >>> discussion. In the following paragraph you describe 'the place' >>> perfectly and your reason for commencing timing at the time stated is >>> without question. >>> In my view, 'the place where the original ball is likely to be' is >>> the >>> place where any of the the player's side, including his/their >>> caddies, >>> start looking for it. When observing play this where I start timing. >>> In your next paragraph (below) you follow 27-2b exactly by using >>> **from this place**. >>> How many times as a referee, and in your private play, have you seen a >>> provisional ball come to rest 'at this place'? >>> 'Nearer the hole than this place' is quite an acceptable description >>> of a point which contributes to making the provisional ball become the >>> ball in play! >> Pat, >> >> If you want to put this to bed, at dinner last night I spoke with R&A >> Director-Rules of Golf, Grant Moir, who is visiting Melbourne as part of >> a Golf Australia Rules of Golf Workshop, and had joined us for the day >> at the 'Vic Open'. >> >> I discussed this very point with him...he was perplexed at first, then >> called for a Rule Book...then agreed that he saw our point. We finally >> agreed that the phrase 'at this place' etc should really be read as >> 'this area' etc...!!. As to 'how often do you see a provisional ball' >> land in the same area as the original....the answer is 'quite often' in >> my experience...it is not at all unusual. I complained that 'why should >> a provisional ball played from that area' render the original ball >> 'lost', when a provisional ball played from any other equidistant (from >> the hole) point doesn't., and why does that particular part of the rule >> exist anyway!' He was silent on that. >> >> He did share a story on an unusual situations submitted for a >> 'decision', where a group of three elderly gentlemen had tee'd off and >> having hit their balls into a suspect area all except one had played >> provisionals. They went forward to search and the two with provisionals >> found their balls while the third searched for the full five minute >> period allowed and failed to find his ball. He returned to the tee and >> on arriving he was surprised to find his ball sitting neatly on a tee on >> the teeing ground. HE HAD FORGOTTEN TO PLAY HIS TEE SHOT!!!! >> >> So what was the ruling for a player who had searched five minutes for a >> ball that he had not even put into play? It seems that in equity the R&A >> expressed sympathy for the gentleman concerned, wrote him a kind letter >> explaining that they were unable to find any reason to penalise >> him...and asked him to keep his wits about him when on the teeing ground >> in future!! >> >> cheers >> david > > You didn't happen to mention the other point about 'he' and 'it', did > you or perhaps you might also think it nit picking? Actually, although it wasn't this particular point I was talking about, when I introduced myself, I asked him if he would address a couple of queries I had. When we had finished with the first point, as above, he remarked "...and the other point was?". I rather foolishly had to say "....er, actually I have forgotten what it was!". Even now, 36 hours later, I still cannot remember what it was!! I do recall the red ned was a particularly fine drop though! cheers david > |