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From: glfnaz on 5 Dec 2007 08:25

"Dene" <gdstrue(a)aol.com> wrote in message
news:87122362-83cf-401e-aba7-d795a88c9ae8(a)s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 4, 6:58 pm, "glfnaz" <glf...(a)qwesttrash.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> He's wrong.
>> Lead wrist supination does not create the leading of the hips.
>> It's very often a result of that.
>> ( see Fred Couples)
>> And, Hogan himself was an example of a golfer who went to the top with a
>> cupped left wrist and created a flat left wrist and palm rotating up with
>> a
>> reverse roll on the downswing. Thats how he faded the ball.
>>
>> Supination is a very poor term that Hogan used.
>> It is a palm up condition, not controlled by the wrist, but controlled by
>> the forearm rotation.
>> Kellys term of flat left wrist made more sense. Instead of a medical /
>> pyhsiological term, he invented a new term for the wrist condition.
>> In fact, it's possible to be supinated, palm up, with a bent lead wrist,
>> if
>> we use the medical term. Thats not good.
>>
>> But back to Larry's post.
>> Lead wrist supination does not cause a hips - first downswing.
>> Actually the opposite is more true.
>> A hips first downswing allows for a supinated left wrist.
>> It's called L A G- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Ol Larry said....
>
> Actually it is the other way around, lead wrist
> supination comes first; it may actually be the most important because
> doing that CREATES the hips first downswing initiation and the
> continuous movement.
>
> Brad....I agree with your assessment of this statement. Perhaps he
> needs to rephrase. The rest of his post isn't bad.
>
> As for suppination and so forth, I do wish there was a visual to
> explain both what Hogan and Homer advocated. A golf swing is
> difficult to ascertain in words alone.
>
> -Greg

Right.
Hogan had a great message, but he didn't use the right words.
If Hogan had a supinated lead wrist at impact, the clubface would look left.
Homer also at a loss for the words, made a new description FLW.
I think they both meant the same thing.
But in Larry's case, the wrist condition does not create the hip condition.


From: Birdie Bill on 5 Dec 2007 08:35
On Dec 5, 7:25 am, "glfnaz" <glf...(a)qwesttrash.com> wrote:
> "Dene" <gdst...(a)aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:87122362-83cf-401e-aba7-d795a88c9ae8(a)s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 4, 6:58 pm, "glfnaz" <glf...(a)qwesttrash.com> wrote:
>
> >> He's wrong.
> >> Lead wrist supination does not create the leading of the hips.
> >> It's very often a result of that.
> >> ( see Fred Couples)
> >> And, Hogan himself was an example of a golfer who went to the top with a
> >> cupped left wrist and created a flat left wrist and palm rotating up with
> >> a
> >> reverse roll on the downswing. Thats how he faded the ball.
>
> >> Supination is a very poor term that Hogan used.
> >> It is a palm up condition, not controlled by the wrist, but controlled by
> >> the forearm rotation.
> >> Kellys term of flat left wrist made more sense. Instead of a medical /
> >> pyhsiological term, he invented a new term for the wrist condition.
> >> In fact, it's possible to be supinated, palm up, with a bent lead wrist,
> >> if
> >> we use the medical term. Thats not good.
>
> >> But back to Larry's post.
> >> Lead wrist supination does not cause a hips - first downswing.
> >> Actually the opposite is more true.
> >> A hips first downswing allows for a supinated left wrist.
> >> It's called L A G- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Ol Larry said....
>
> > Actually it is the other way around, lead wrist
> > supination comes first; it may actually be the most important because
> > doing that CREATES the hips first downswing initiation and the
> > continuous movement.
>
> > Brad....I agree with your assessment of this statement. Perhaps he
> > needs to rephrase. The rest of his post isn't bad.
>
> > As for suppination and so forth, I do wish there was a visual to
> > explain both what Hogan and Homer advocated. A golf swing is
> > difficult to ascertain in words alone.
>
> > -Greg
>
> Right.
> Hogan had a great message, but he didn't use the right words.
> If Hogan had a supinated lead wrist at impact, the clubface would look left.
> Homer also at a loss for the words, made a new description FLW.
> I think they both meant the same thing.
> But in Larry's case, the wrist condition does not create the hip condition.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That's obvious from the recent video of his swing.

I think it's true, though, the more someone
opens the hips, the more they will need to close
the clubface. Not sure exactly why since
the actions are independant. Maybe it has to
do with flexibility.
From: The_Professor on 5 Dec 2007 10:45
On Dec 5, 12:29 am, Rob Davis <davis....(a)verizon.net> wrote:
> Dene wrote:
> > On Dec 4, 5:00 pm, larryrsf <la...(a)delmardata.com> wrote:
>
> >>Hogan says in "5 Lessons" that the golf downswing must include, 1.
> >>Starting down with hips, 2. the downswing is one continuous movement
> >>from top to finish, and 3. that the lead wrist is supinated before
> >>impact, the knuckles of that hand are facing down just before impact
> >>and the hands lead the clubhead.
>
> >>Hogan says that EVERY good player supinates his lead wrist before
> >>impact, that there is no way to play advanced golf without doing
> >>that.
>
> >>He and my teaching pro (a PGA certified pro who played on a pro tour)
> >>agree with Hogan, but also says that simply leading with hips and
> >>making the continuous movement is not enough to play low handicap
> >>golf. We still can't hit it well enough to score consistently.
> >>Lead wrist supination MUST be learned in order to make the first two
> >>really effective. Actually it is the other way around, lead wrist
> >>supination comes first; it may actually be the most important because
> >>doing that CREATES the hips first downswing initiation and the
> >>continuous movement. No doubt that the three factors are inextricably
> >>blended, cannot be isolated.
>
> >>Who is working on this? What do you think?
>
> >>Larry
>
> > Good post. Hopefully nobody will find any fault with this one.
>
> > The concept of suppination, as described by you and Hogan, remains a
> > mystery to me. Is there a visual that describes it? How does
> > "knuckles faced down prior to impact" correlate to Homer's "left flat
> > wrist at impact" essential?
>
> > -Greg
>
> As I understand it, it's essentially a slightly "bowed" left wrist, and
> the left forearm has rotated back to square (or maybe even started to
> close?). It's really just Hogan's way of describing the proper impact
> position ... it's the opposite of the "scoop" that most hackers make.
> The trouble with the terminology is that it's maybe one of the most
> misunderstood words in all of golf teaching ... if you google it you'll
> find several contradictory descriptions ... I even saw one that
> described it in terms of the *right* wrist. "Flat" is probably an easier
> concept for most people.
>
> But I don't see how the the proper impact position can contribute to
> creating the right transition move (i.e. hips first) ... I think that's
> baloney. Also, I believe Hogan (undeniably a brilliant golfer and
> responsible for a lot good swing theory) is controversial in a lot ways
> ... the problems that Hogan was trying to solve in his swing are likely
> not the problems you and I are trying to solve. But, I can't argue with
> the idea that achieving a good impact position is important ... as is
> the setup, the backswing, the swing plane, the transition, etc ...
>
> Rob

Absolutely. Something like a wrist position is indicative of a good/
bad swing, but forcing the wrist to be bowed at impact, for example,
isn't going to do anything good for you. Also, more people have
probably ruined their game trying to swing like Hogan than have helped
their game trying to swing like Hogan for just the reasons you stated;
he did things that worked for him and unless you are at least somewhat
similar to him, it is unlikely that a lot of those things will work
for you.
From: larryrsf on 5 Dec 2007 12:55
On Dec 4, 5:50 pm, Dene <gdst...(a)aol.com> wrote:
> On Dec 4, 5:00 pm, larryrsf <la...(a)delmardata.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hogan says in "5 Lessons" that the golf downswing must include, 1.
> > Starting down with hips, 2. the downswing is one continuous movement
> > from top to finish, and 3. that the lead wrist is supinated before
> > impact, the knuckles of that hand are facing down just before impact
> > and the hands lead the clubhead.
>
> > Hogan says that EVERY good player supinates his lead wrist before
> > impact, that there is no way to play advanced golf without doing
> > that.
>
> > He and my teaching pro (a PGA certified pro who played on a pro tour)
> > agree with Hogan, but also says that simply leading with hips and
> > making the continuous movement is not enough to play low handicap
> > golf. We still can't hit it well enough to score consistently.
> > Lead wrist supination MUST be learned in order to make the first two
> > really effective. Actually it is the other way around, lead wrist
> > supination comes first; it may actually be the most important because
> > doing that CREATES the hips first downswing initiation and the
> > continuous movement. No doubt that the three factors are inextricably
> > blended, cannot be isolated.
>
> > Who is working on this? What do you think?
>
> > Larry
>
> Good post. Hopefully nobody will find any fault with this one.
>
> The concept of suppination, as described by you and Hogan, remains a
> mystery to me. Is there a visual that describes it? How does
> "knuckles faced down prior to impact" correlate to Homer's "left flat
> wrist at impact" essential?

Hi Greg,

See "5 Lessons," pages 100 and on. He illustrates explains it in
words. BUT that wasn't enough for me. I had a completely wrong idea
about it before that lesson.

I strongly advise all who think they are ready for this advanced move
see a teaching pro. He will decide whether you are ready. You
could hurt rather than help your golf swing! And don't be surprised
if he tells you to go away and come back after significantly
strenghening your lead side, arm, hand, etc. Before you can downswing
with a bowed front arm and supinate through impact you really should
be able to hit balls pretty well with your lead arm ONLY--and
certainly be able to release with your dominant hand before impact--
with medium to short irons.


Larry
From: larryrsf on 5 Dec 2007 13:06
On Dec 4, 10:29 pm, Rob Davis <davis....(a)verizon.net> wrote:
> Dene wrote:
> > On Dec 4, 5:00 pm, larryrsf <la...(a)delmardata.com> wrote:
>
> >>Hogan says in "5 Lessons" that the golf downswing must include, 1.
> >>Starting down with hips, 2. the downswing is one continuous movement
> >>from top to finish, and 3. that the lead wrist is supinated before
> >>impact, the knuckles of that hand are facing down just before impact
> >>and the hands lead the clubhead.
>
> >>Hogan says that EVERY good player supinates his lead wrist before
> >>impact, that there is no way to play advanced golf without doing
> >>that.
>
> >>He and my teaching pro (a PGA certified pro who played on a pro tour)
> >>agree with Hogan, but also says that simply leading with hips and
> >>making the continuous movement is not enough to play low handicap
> >>golf. We still can't hit it well enough to score consistently.
> >>Lead wrist supination MUST be learned in order to make the first two
> >>really effective. Actually it is the other way around, lead wrist
> >>supination comes first; it may actually be the most important because
> >>doing that CREATES the hips first downswing initiation and the
> >>continuous movement. No doubt that the three factors are inextricably
> >>blended, cannot be isolated.
>
> >>Who is working on this? What do you think?
>
> >>Larry
>
> > Good post. Hopefully nobody will find any fault with this one.
>
> > The concept of suppination, as described by you and Hogan, remains a
> > mystery to me. Is there a visual that describes it? How does
> > "knuckles faced down prior to impact" correlate to Homer's "left flat
> > wrist at impact" essential?
>
> > -Greg
>
> As I understand it, it's essentially a slightly "bowed" left wrist, and
> the left forearm has rotated back to square (or maybe even started to
> close?). It's really just Hogan's way of describing the proper impact
> position ... it's the opposite of the "scoop" that most hackers make.
> The trouble with the terminology is that it's maybe one of the most
> misunderstood words in all of golf teaching ... if you google it you'll
> find several contradictory descriptions ... I even saw one that
> described it in terms of the *right* wrist. "Flat" is probably an easier
> concept for most people.
>
> But I don't see how the the proper impact position can contribute to
> creating the right transition move (i.e. hips first) ... I think that's
> baloney. Also, I believe Hogan (undeniably a brilliant golfer and
> responsible for a lot good swing theory) is controversial in a lot ways
> ... the problems that Hogan was trying to solve in his swing are likely
> not the problems you and I are trying to solve. But, I can't argue with
> the idea that achieving a good impact position is important ... as is
> the setup, the backswing, the swing plane, the transition, etc ...
>
> Rob

The transition move to the front leg before the arms come down is
automatic in the baseball swing-- and very difficult to learn in the
golf swing (for late beginners).

Who knows what swing thought will make it as automatic and natural as
in the baseball horizontal swing? One possibility is the "Intent" or
swing thought focus to lead the downswing with the forward side, arm,
and bowed wrist. That certainly helps me to swing through--and
swinging through makes the transition move to the front leg
natural.

There is no doubt, however, that one foundation skill to make a
supinated release is control of the golf club in the forward hand,
arm, and side, the forward arm "connected" to the torso. Golfers who
aspire to make the supinated release should ensure that they can hit
balls with their lead arm only (short irons).

I doubt there is any way but to have a teaching pro walk you through
the swing--to hold your golf club through the downswing and show you
what happens. He will almost certainly fix your grip--because it MUST
be neutral or even weak. A strong grip with the clubface held closed
will NOT work. You will hook or even duck hook every ball.

Some teaching pros will not teach this to any but advanced golfers--
and those who will persist. Don't be surprised if your guy refuses.
They don't want to mess you up--and be blamed for worsening your
game.


Larry
>
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