From: larryrsf on 4 Dec 2006 13:53
On Nov 26, 1:01 pm, "George Hibbard" <g...(a)perfectimpact.com> wrote:
> "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...(a)ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in messagenews:6Hmah.3514$sf5.2229(a)newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > "George Hibbard" <g...(a)perfectimpact.com> wrote in message
> >> "Dave Lee" <DaveLe...(a)ix.netcom.RemovE.com> wrote in message
> > snip
> >> When videotaping a pupil with a similar drill of this kind, we discovered
> > in
> >> replay that the release of the L angle took exactly TWO FRAMES of space:
> >> that when the hands moved about 3 inches the clubhead moved about 3 feet.
> >> And this was with various length backswings, such that if the backswing
> > were
> >> "to the top," the release would occur too easy and be wasted by the time
> > the
> >> hands got to the right pants leg. When the downswing STARTED with the
> > hands
> >> no higher than the belt, it was possible to START the release when the
> > hands
> >> reached mid body - in front of the pants zipper, and in two frames, about
> > 3
> >> inches of travel, the clubhead traveled from where the shaft was level
> > with
> >> the ground all the way to the ball.
> >> So the problem is not "can I release the club fast enough" at all. It is
> > I
> >> HAVE TO STOP TRYING TO GO BACK SO DARN FAR, and I HAVE TO STOP WORRYING
> >> ABOUT WILL THE CLUBHEAD RELEASE SOON ENOUGH. The exact opposite things
> >> occur than are expected: the club and arms had better NOT go back so far,
> >> and if I act to apply any pressure at all ON the shaft to advance the
> >> club
> >> IT RELEASES FAR TOO SOON.
> >> This is for early in one's development. This is not for an advanced or
> > more
> >> skilled player who controls his timing better.
> >> When replayed, pupils simply cannot believe what they see in slo mo and
> > stop
> >> frame. It is very dramatic, and instructive, to do this.
> > Thanks for the comments, George. For me I don't know if the change will be
> > an "aha moment", a long and tortuous path (this is what my instructor
> > believes), or a complete failure.
> > But FWIW I looked at a swing of Chad Campbell vs. me just now. In the
> > frame
> > where it is obvious that your hands are now below the belt buckle it is
> > exactly four more frame to get to impact for me and for Chad. However the
> > lag angle for Chad (angle between his shaft and left forearm) is 83
> > degrees
> > while mine is 118.
> > Of course if I were able to achieve Chad's lag in my swing, I would be
> > transferring more momentum from my arms to the clubhead and my arms would
> > slow down more than they do.
> > But for now I've got the same arm speed as Chad Campbell!! :-)
> > daveDave, as I said and didn't fully complete, the subconscious ACTS AGAINST OUR
> KNOWLEDGE to advance the SHAFT. Which causes the release to start too
> early. You have to move your hands in such a way that if the clubshaft were
> elastic, you'd STRETCH it. ANY other force applied does dissipate the lag
> angle IMMEDIATELY. Chad has simply learned NOT to do something leveragewise
> to the shaft. As you say your arms move about the same speed. So it isn't
> that you can't do what he does: it is that the demon inside is resisting --
> and the demon is ALWAYS because of a misperception, an unconscious belief
> that is based on a wrong premise. You HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR IMAGE, and the
> drill is the only way the instructor has to be able to LEARN YOU. Which of
> course he can't do: he can show you but you LEARN yourself. ANd that by
> empirical evidence that you can't deny.
> Another take on this is to NOT USE your right hand at all during this drill
> for about 6 months. No, I take that back: use it TO HOLD THE SHAFT ABOUT
> HALF WAY DOWN to KEEP it from advancing so that you DO bring the entire L
> shape assembly to where your left hand is IN FRONT OF YOUR ZIPPER before you
> release your right hand. When your left hand IS there the club will then be
> parallel to the ground. THAT is when you let go with the right hand and
> watch the immediacy of the release.
> Research Paul Bertholy- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Significantly, Bobby Jones never mentions "lag" in any of his books.
He does describe the factors that create a very late deep lag and late
release, however, and they are all indirect, of course, since human
golfers are still the same as they were in his day.
Golfers achieve "lag" and the late release that creates effortless
clubhead speed and accurate ball striking, the ability to make a divot
from the ball position for several inches toward the target by using
very loose grip pressure, using very light arm tension, and relaxed
torso and hips. The lag and late release just happen when you are
relaxed. The relaxation factor cannot be over-emphasized. It won't
work without it!!! Being free of tension is absolutely vitally
important in order to have your lower body turn toward the target (the
hips) lead the downswing-- which leaves the arms behind and creates the
lag and late release. That cannot happen if the arms and grip pressure
are so tense that the club cannot naturally set on top due to intertia.
It will all be wasted in a cast if the arms and dominant hand grip
pressure screw it up.
Everyone should watch Bobby Jones again-- even though some aspects of
his swing are old-fashioned, Jack Nicklaus was correct is saying there
is more to learn from him than "modern" teaching, meaning the position
analysis, etc. that can only add too much tension for a repeating golf
Bobby Jones "threw the clubhead at the ball" and he would have driven
it 300+ from the tee with modern clubs and balls. He would have
easily hit every GIR on even the longest championship course today.
His entire secret was relaxation. You can't create clubhead speed and
repeating accuracy with tension anyplace in your body. The best long
drive competitors train with Whippy drivers--; i.e. to eliminate hands
From: SKIPPER on 5 Dec 2006 12:20
> Significantly, Bobby Jones never mentions "lag" in any of his books.
> He does describe the factors that create a very late deep lag and late
> release, however, and they are all indirect, of course, since human
> golfers are still the same as they were in his day.
> Golfers achieve "lag" and the late release that creates effortless
> clubhead speed and accurate ball striking, the ability to make a divot
> from the ball position for several inches toward the target by using
> very loose grip pressure, using very light arm tension, and relaxed
> torso and hips. The lag and late release just happen when you are
> relaxed. The relaxation factor cannot be over-emphasized. It won't
> work without it!!!
Hogan says the left wrist should supinate throughout the downswing,
so that the golfer gets the impression the back of the left hand is
lashing at the ball. His left wrist is slightly cupped at the top, and
supinated through impact, demonstrating he practiced what
The most notable thing in your swing pictures (DL) that I see, is
already noted by others. The relative angles of the hips and shoulders
are quite unusual. In the Bobby Jones video, at impact, his hips are
open maybe 70 degrees, or so, and his shoulders are open 20 degrees
If you look at the swing of any great golfer, they all share this
Now, maybe the angles change a little, but the hips are much more
open than the shoulders at impact. The hips, for pro golfers in their
prime, are usually much closer to 90 degrees open at impact than they
are to 0 degrees open.
The reason for this is that the power of the swing begins being
generated by the hip turn from the top. The "coil" from the hips
to the shoulders is perceived as the power source. The backswing
sets up the hips being much more open than the hips. In Jones
early downswing, his hips are square and the club is still at the top,
with the shoulders closed roughly 70 degrees (back to target). The
hips and shoulders turn nearly together through impact. The impact
position looks awkward - the right elbow at the right hip, the head
not moved, but the body so open. This is again a common theme
among single plane golfers like Hogan and Jones and Palmer and
the 2006 Tiger Woods, but even one-plane swingers like Nicklaus
have their hips substantially more open than their shoulders
The unfortunate reality is that to go from your current swing to
one in which the hips lead the downswing is more than one trip
to the practice tee. More like a six months of frustration followed by
a few shots further improvement in your index.
From: Dave Lee on 5 Dec 2006 20:01
"SKIPPER" <blakestah(a)gmail.com> wrote in message
> The unfortunate reality is that to go from your current swing to
> one in which the hips lead the downswing is more than one trip
> to the practice tee. More like a six months of frustration followed by
> a few shots further improvement in your index.
Unfortunately, you and my instructor agree about the timing - he says 4-6