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From: M L Wadsworth on 7 Aug 2008 04:32

"Nick Perkins" <nick.usenet(a)NOSPAMHandicapMaster.org> wrote in message
news:keidnVsBW59ChQfVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d(a)posted.plusnet...
> In the UK, the CONGU handicap system includes clause 8.7 which falls under
> the section "Responsibilities of the Player":
>
> "8.7 Enter his current Playing Handicap on all cards returned in a
> Qualifying Competition even though the event may not be a handicap
> competition. This is required for the calculation of a Competition Scratch
> Score."
>
> Effectively, if the competition was a handicap qualifying competition,
> then it was a "handicap competition" as described in Rule 6 of the rules
> of golf, even if the handicap allowance was none (scratch)! Players who do
> not include their handicap on the scorecard are then in breach of rule 6
> and it is correct that they are DQ'ed.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> --
> Nick Perkins
> HandicapMaster Ltd


Thank you for that reminder, Nick.
I was wondering this last week when we had the County Youth's Championship.

When checking cards in with the competitors, we were ensuring handicaps were
on the score cards although it was a scratch competition with no nett
prizes. We already knew the competitors handicaps which were checked at
registration.

I'm not sure a scratch competition is also a qualifying "competition" in the
true sense. Yes - it is a qualifying competition as defined by CONGU but
really it is a qualifying round rather than a competition.
Our Youths' Championship was over 36 holes, but each round would be a
separate round for handicap purposes.

In my opinion, in a scratch competition, no competitor should be
disqualified for failing to record his handicap on the score card, despite
the fact that it would be required to produce the CSS and for handicap
adjustment purposes.
I think Decision 33-1/13 would support that view.


I have another question:

In our Youths' Championship I was disappointed that we had about 10% of
score cards returned in each round as "No Returns" by competitors.
Either because the competitor:
a) had no score on one hole;
b) had no score on several holes;
c) stopped recording scores - sometimes after only a few holes had been
played, get continued to play out the round, or
d) walked off the course part way through the round.

Don Lilley has recommended (and I agree with him) that all these
competitors, having started the round should be recorded on the results
sheet as "Disqualified". I do not know what software our County uses but
would you expect to record a competitor as disqualified if he returns an
incomplete score card?

I have read Clause 8, 8.10/1 and Appendix P.
Am I correct that score cards (a) and (b) above are used in the calculation
of the CSS but not those of (c) and (d)?


Regards,
Malcolm


From: Kenneth on 7 Aug 2008 07:42

"M L Wadsworth" <malCUTcolTHEmwadsworth(a)btCACKLEinternet.com> wrote in
message news:-b2dnfhDRfOHLgfVnZ2dnUVZ8h-dnZ2d(a)bt.com...
>
>
> I have another question:
>
> In our Youths' Championship I was disappointed that we had about 10% of
> score cards returned in each round as "No Returns" by competitors.
> Either because the competitor:
> a) had no score on one hole;
> b) had no score on several holes;
> c) stopped recording scores - sometimes after only a few holes had been
> played, get continued to play out the round, or
> d) walked off the course part way through the round.
>
> Don Lilley has recommended (and I agree with him) that all these
> competitors, having started the round should be recorded on the results
> sheet as "Disqualified". I do not know what software our County uses but
> would you expect to record a competitor as disqualified if he returns an
> incomplete score card?
>
> I have read Clause 8, 8.10/1 and Appendix P.
> Am I correct that score cards (a) and (b) above are used in the
> calculation of the CSS but not those of (c) and (d)?
>
>
> Regards,
> Malcolm
>
At my club, at least, "nil return" also includes those who may have
completed their round but failed to enter their score on the computer before
it is closed down (which is shortly after the last group have finished).

Kenneth

From: Nick Perkins on 7 Aug 2008 12:36
<snip>

> In my opinion, in a scratch competition, no competitor should be
> disqualified for failing to record his handicap on the score card, despite
> the fact that it would be required to produce the CSS and for handicap
> adjustment purposes.
> I think Decision 33-1/13 would support that view.
>

I guess it could be argued that the player has breached their handicapping
responisibilty under the CONGU rather than the rule of golf. It is a
question whether they have broken a rule of golf or failed to meet their
responsibilities for having a CONGU handicap!

If this is the case, then maybe they should not be disqulaified, but have
their handicap suspended instead!

>
> I have another question:
>
> In our Youths' Championship I was disappointed that we had about 10% of
> score cards returned in each round as "No Returns" by competitors.
> Either because the competitor:
> a) had no score on one hole;
> b) had no score on several holes;
> c) stopped recording scores - sometimes after only a few holes had been
> played, get continued to play out the round, or
> d) walked off the course part way through the round.
>
> Don Lilley has recommended (and I agree with him) that all these
> competitors, having started the round should be recorded on the results
> sheet as "Disqualified". I do not know what software our County uses but
> would you expect to record a competitor as disqualified if he returns an
> incomplete score card?
>
> I have read Clause 8, 8.10/1 and Appendix P.
> Am I correct that score cards (a) and (b) above are used in the
> calculation of the CSS but not those of (c) and (d)?
>

All No Returns should be included in the players records and in the CSS
calculation. Decision 2(c)(c) does offer the possibility not to include a
card if very few holes have been played.

Generally, however, CONGU tell me they strongly recommend NR's should be
recorded and used in the CSS calculation. If the club adopts a policy, say,
of not accepting any scores for handicapping if the card is not returned,
this sends a strong signal to members that if they don't want their handicap
to go up, they simply do not need to return their card! This can be a much
bigger problem than some players occasionally getting a 0.1 increase when,
perhaps, they did not really deserve it. Its not a good thing to encourage
players to fail to return their cards.

This seems to make sense to me.

In your situation, all NR's should have been recorded and used in the CSS
calculation, unless you know that players walked off the course after very
few holes played.

I hope this helps.

--
Nick Perkins
HandicapMaster Ltd

From: M L Wadsworth on 7 Aug 2008 13:14

"Nick Perkins" <nick.usenet(a)NOSPAMHandicapMaster.org> wrote in message
news:ysSdnQLg8OnwuQbVnZ2dnUVZ8vudnZ2d(a)posted.plusnet...

>>
>> In our Youths' Championship I was disappointed that we had about 10% of
>> score cards returned in each round as "No Returns" by competitors.
>> Either because the competitor:
>> a) had no score on one hole;
>> b) had no score on several holes;
>> c) stopped recording scores - sometimes after only a few holes had been
>> played, get continued to play out the round, or
>> d) walked off the course part way through the round.
>>
>> Don Lilley has recommended (and I agree with him) that all these
>> competitors, having started the round should be recorded on the results
>> sheet as "Disqualified". I do not know what software our County uses but
>> would you expect to record a competitor as disqualified if he returns an
>> incomplete score card?
>>
>> I have read Clause 8, 8.10/1 and Appendix P.
>> Am I correct that score cards (a) and (b) above are used in the
>> calculation of the CSS but not those of (c) and (d)?
>>
>
> All No Returns should be included in the players records and in the CSS
> calculation. Decision 2(c)(c) does offer the possibility not to include a
> card if very few holes have been played.
>
> Generally, however, CONGU tell me they strongly recommend NR's should be
> recorded and used in the CSS calculation. If the club adopts a policy,
> say, of not accepting any scores for handicapping if the card is not
> returned, this sends a strong signal to members that if they don't want
> their handicap to go up, they simply do not need to return their card!
> This can be a much bigger problem than some players occasionally getting a
> 0.1 increase when, perhaps, they did not really deserve it. Its not a good
> thing to encourage players to fail to return their cards.
>
> This seems to make sense to me.
>
> In your situation, all NR's should have been recorded and used in the CSS
> calculation, unless you know that players walked off the course after very
> few holes played.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> --
> Nick Perkins
> HandicapMaster Ltd

Many thanks, Nick.

Regards,
Malcolm


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