From: Dinosaur_Sr on 3 Mar 2010 17:05
On Mar 2, 6:32 pm, "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 2, 2:22 pm, Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> > On Mar 2, 9:32 am, "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Mar 1, 9:19 pm, BAR <sc...(a)you.com> wrote:
> > > > In article <26455639-3205-4bf7-a0f6-760e4098a190
> > > > @z35g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, johnb...(a)gmail.com says...
> > > > > On Mar 1, 8:47 pm, BAR <sc...(a)you.com> wrote:
> > > > > > In article <lgqoo5plbuimmmsfl95n852l6kfcg2v...(a)4ax.com>,
> > > > > > bkni...(a)conramp.net says...
> > > > > > > On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 20:26:02 -0500, BAR <sc...(a)you.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >In article <4b8c6809$0$30950$9a6e1...(a)unlimited.newshosting.com>,
> > > > > > > >nob...(a)nospam.tampabay.rr.com says...
> > > > > > > >> On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:09:19 -0700, Howard Brazee wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:57:20 -0800 (PST), Dinosaur_Sr
> > > > > > > >> > <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >>> Agreed, but it works both ways. If someone loses their job and needs
> > > > > > > >> >>> to buy a private insurance policy, insurance cos. shouldn't be
> > > > > > > >> >>> allowed to turn them down because of the state of their health.
> > > > > > > >> >> No problem. The question is, who is going to pay for it? The clear
> > > > > > > >> >> consensus in the US is that ordinary working people feel they pay too
> > > > > > > >> >> much to the govt, and they don't want to pay any more, in fact, they
> > > > > > > >> >> want to pay less.
> > > > > > > >> > Who pays for it now?
> > > > > > > >> > (We do).
> > > > > > > >> The ideologues seem to be ignoring this obvious fact with all their
> > > > > > > >Everyone should pay for the services they receive. If you don't pay you
> > > > > > > >should go to jail for stealing.
> > > > > > > >If someone walked into your house and grabbed your wife's jewelry and
> > > > > > > >your computer and other valuables so that they could eat would you call
> > > > > > > >the police? Would you just let them steal from you?
> > > > > > > Bert, you really need to do some studying on analogies. This one was
> > > > > > > so far off it isn't even funny.....even for you.
> > > > > > Stealing is stealing. When you got to a place of business and you have
> > > > > > have no intention of paying for the services you receive you are
> > > > > > stealing.
> > > > > There's a difference between intent and ability. You refuse to accept
> > > > > that anyone might be unable to pay for medical care.
> > > > Main Entry: 1in tent
> > > > Pronunciation: \in-?tent\
> > > > Function: noun
> > > > Etymology: Middle English entente, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin
> > > > intentus, from Latin, act of stretching out, from intendere
> > > > Date: 13th century
> > > > 1 a : the act or fact of intending : purpose; especially : the design or
> > > > purpose to commit a wrongful or criminal act <admitted wounding him with
> > > > intent> b : the state of mind with which an act is done : volition
> > > > 2 : a usually clearly formulated or planned intention : aim <the
> > > > director's intent>
> > > > 3 a : meaning, significance b : connotation 3
> > > > synonyms see intention
> > > > Main Entry: abil i ty
> > > > Pronunciation: \?-?bi-l?-te-\
> > > > Function: noun
> > > > Inflected Form(s): plural abil i ties
> > > > Etymology: Middle English abilite, from Anglo-French, from Latin
> > > > habilitat-, habilitas, from habilis apt, skillful ? more at able
> > > > Date: 14th century
> > > > 1 a : the quality or state of being able <ability of the soil to hold
> > > > water>; especially : physical, mental, or legal power to perform b :
> > > > competence in doing : skill
> > > > 2 : natural aptitude or acquired proficiency <children whose abilities
> > > > warrant higher education>
> > > > If you don't have the ability to pay then your intent is to steal.- Hide quoted text -
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > So, if you're one of the millions of people who list their jobs and
> > > their health insurance in the recession and you, say, break your leg,
> > > going to the ER with no immediate ability to pay for treatment is
> > > stealing?
> > You get a bill, like if you need to fix your car, or you need a new
> > roof on your house.- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> Medical bills can run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. If
> I'm not mistaken, car and roof repairs generally don't run that high.
Really? Looking over a lifetime, what do people spend?
Look at housing. Let's get real cheap, and say a person spends $500.00
per month, and that's pretty cheap if they have any utilities. Over
say 50 years, that comes to $300,000.00 for housing. Of course $500.00
per month would be cheap for a car, assuming you do repair it from
time to time, put gas in it, park it, clean it, change the oil.
You'll pay $300,000.00 for a car, but somehow can't handle paying that
for your own health care so you have to pay someone else to pay for
your health care for you. I must admit, I don't get it.
You want to talk housing, people pay more like $2000.00 per month for
housing. Over 50 years that's over a million, and very few people
spend that much on health care (compared especially to those who spend
that on housing).
So why can't we buy our own health care? There are some real issues
here that could be solved, but we choose to go the way of paying the
government and insurance companies to pay for our health care for
us...and we are supposed to think this is cheaper? You absolutely have
to be an idiot to believe this.
From: Dinosaur_Sr on 3 Mar 2010 17:07
On Mar 3, 12:22 pm, "dene" <d...(a)remove.ipns.com> wrote:
> "William Clark" <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
> > In article <MPG.25f8312054bcd8d6989...(a)news.giganews.com>,
> > BAR <sc...(a)you.com> wrote:
> > > In article <clark-6883CE.08091703032...(a)charm.magnus.acs.ohio-
> > > state.edu>, cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-state.edu says...
> > > > > > Do you know how much of your medical expenses car insurance will
> > > > > > Thank you. But, for the benefit of the hard of thinking, let's
> call it
> > > > > > getting hit by falling masonry while walking in the street.
> > > > > > There. Got it now?
> > > > > Fine. If there is no liability insurance to cover the accident
> > > > > then
> > > > > one's health insurance will take over.
> > > > > If you don't have it, get it.
> > > > > -Greg
> > > > Provided you can afford it.
> > > Provided they are willing to give up unnecessary luxuries.
> > Indeed, I go down to the east side of Columbus and work with single
> > parent families whose homes are loaded with "unnecessary luxuries", like
> > Ramen Noodles and such.
> > You're a bigoted idiot.
> If true, they are on medicaid, aren't they? They are also receiving food
> stamps and housing allowances. So why are they *choosing* to eat Ramen
You need to follow some food stamp users into the parking lot. Many of
them drive new, (current model year) model vehicles. Not all do, mind
you, but many. People who can pay for their insurance will take the
free if they can get it, regardless.
From: Dinosaur_Sr on 3 Mar 2010 17:09
On Mar 3, 5:00 pm, "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 3, 4:15 pm, Jack Hollis <xslee...(a)aol.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 02 Mar 2010 21:04:35 -0600, bkni...(a)conramp.net wrote:
> > >>Businessmen are smarter than politicians.
> > >George Bush was a businessman.
> > True, but he was smart enough to get himself elected president twice.
> > He was also smart enough to know that it's businessmen who made the US
> > the richest and most powerful nation on earth and it's best to leave
> > them alone.
> If we had left "businessmen" alone, we would not have clean air to
> breathe, clean water to drink, safe cars to drive, safe food to eat,
> safe working conditions, building codes, truth in advertising, anti-
> trust protection, equal opportunity in employment and housing....jeez,
> I could go on all day.
That is simply not true. Mining companies I know of have, on their
own, reclaimed the land after they left. Some leave a scarred earth,
some don't. To say that all businessmen are bad like that is akin to
saying all politicians are corrupt.
From: Dinosaur_Sr on 3 Mar 2010 17:16
On Mar 3, 12:25 pm, "dene" <d...(a)remove.ipns.com> wrote:
> "Carbon" <nob...(a)nospam.tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> > On Tue, 02 Mar 2010 20:55:08 -0800, dene wrote:
> > > "Carbon" <nob...(a)nospam.tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> > >news:4b8dbd26$0$4858$9a6e19ea(a)unlimited.newshosting.com...
> > >> On Tue, 02 Mar 2010 10:42:13 -0800, John B. wrote:
> > >>> In the UK, you may wait for months for elective surgery. If you need
> > >>> urgent care, you get it right away.
> > >> Same with Canada.
> > > Nice system. A person is in pain, needing a hip or knee replacement,
> > > waits months for the surgery. In the meantime, just sock them full of
> > > vicodin and watch tv..
> > > I may pay more but it's worth it.
> > It really isn't. Canada provides healthcare to all its citizens at 2/3
> > the cost of the US system. The system obviously works better, because
> > your CIA world fact book says the average life expectancy in Canada is
> > more than three years greater than in the US. Similar lifestyle and
> > culture. Hmm, I wonder what could account for this amazing difference....
> We've covered this. The US has a more diverse society than Canada. The
> life expectancy is related to people's personal choices (obesity) than it is
> with health care.
That's a big thing. The US allows far more people in from 3rd world
countries that do any of the states of Europe, for example, and that
affects these sorts of stats. The US is also far more regionally
diverse, with urban areas treating a lot of rural areas like colonies,
and squeezing every ounce of productivity they can from rural areas
for the sake of maintaining cities. leaving less health care, among
other things in those rural areas. Medicare Advantage, which the dems
want to eliminate, is mainly an advantage to people in rural areas,
who are supposed to go to urban centers for health care, I suppose.
From: Dinosaur_Sr on 3 Mar 2010 17:23
On Mar 3, 6:48 am, BAR <sc...(a)you.com> wrote:
> In article <4b8dbc18$0$4858$9a6e1...(a)unlimited.newshosting.com>,
> nob...(a)nospam.tampabay.rr.com says...
> > On Tue, 02 Mar 2010 13:36:47 -0800, dene wrote:
> > > "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com>> wrote in message
> > > news:2a75a43d-ed86-4ff6-bb4a-
> > > eb741ca85...(a)a18g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> > >> On Mar 2, 12:09 pm, "dene" <d...(a)remove.ipns.com>> wrote:
> > >>> "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com>> wrote in message
> > >>>> There are also plenty of people out there who CAN'T afford health
> > >>>> insurance. But according to you and Bert, et al, they're all the
> > >>>> victims of their own "bad choices," right?
> > >>> Cite where I said that, John. I specifically defined those who are
> > >>> stealing. In your mind, is there any distinctions between a slacker,
> > >>> an illegal, and the unemployed or are all the ininsured "victims"?
> > >> Of course there's a difference. But I don't know what the ratio is of
> > >> "slackers" to people who genuinely can't afford health insurance and
> > >> neither do you. There are those in your camp who claim there is NO
> > >> ONE who can't afford health insurance. I wonder what world they live
> > >> in.
> > > I'm glad you are acknowledging there are slackers out there.
> > > Now....just what do you propose should be done with them to include
> > > them among the insured pool?
> > Of course there are slackers. But there are also millions of families
> > suffering because of the current system. Some just can't afford
> > insurance. Some lose their jobs and can't afford Cobra. Some face
> > skyrocketing premiums if they develop potentially expensive illnesses,
> > and some are simply dropped altogether. It goes on and on. People want
> > change, and I hope they get it. This is a travesty.
> Life is not fair now, nor has it ever been fair.
> 75% of the people don't want the change currently on the table.
Nobody has anything that serves the public interest, IMHO. For example
HSA's are a scam, IMHO. Why should I hold "savings" through an
insurance company? They need more money for office buildings and hedge
funds? Any savings I hold should be in a bank and FDIC insured at the
We can borrow hundreds of thousands to millions to buy houses. Many
thousands to buy cars, take trips to China or buy motor homes, but
borrowing for heath care is some sort of taboo.
Why not a simple program providing reasonably priced loans to cover
major health problems? Wouldn't cost as much as they current plan, and
you would only get them if you needed them, obviously. You don't have
to hand over some fraction of your wealth to an insurance company
because you might need it, you would have to commit some fraction of
your wealth to health care when you do need it.