From: Dinosaur_Sr on
On Mar 9, 7:53 am, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-
state.edu> wrote:
> In article <MPG.26000b4571c731dc989...(a)news.giganews.com>,
>
>  BAR <sc...(a)you.com> wrote:
> > In article <wclark2-61A5BA.22180408032...(a)charm.magnus.acs.ohio-
> > state.edu>, wcla...(a)colnospamumbus.rr.com says...
>
> > > > You sounded very proud of the fact that you and your family didn't pay a
> > > > penny for your fathers needed health care.
>
> > > My family had contributed the the National Health Service all their
> > > lives, through their taxes. This fair and equitable system provided very
> > > well for us when my father was stricken, as it would for all citizens..
> > > Quit trying to excuse your mean spirited little taunt.
>
> > The measure of a man is how he treats his family in its time of need. It
> > appears that your were not there in deed nor in means.
>
> Is it your fervent desire to make yourself look more and more of a
> moronic lowlife with each subsequent post? Because right now, you are
> succeeding brilliantly in doing so.
>
> You know nothing of my interactions with, and role in, my family during
> my father's progression through ALS. How dare you make such a
> pathetically petty and snide comment. You are a truly contemptible
> person.

Really? If my Dad had ALS, I would give up whatever I had to make sure
he got the *BEST* care he could get. I would not accept some nurse
coming by twice a day, that's for sure. As it is, my sister has spent
quite a bit getting my parents into a good facility and providing
needed support. One thing where Canada is a bit better than the UK is
you can still purchase some health care in Canada, but not much.
From: William Clark on
In article
<5235a01c-636c-4d05-be3a-0a06f2b35253(a)f8g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2002(a)att.net> wrote:

> On Mar 9, 7:53�am, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-
> state.edu> wrote:
> > In article <MPG.26000b4571c731dc989...(a)news.giganews.com>,
> >
> > �BAR <sc...(a)you.com> wrote:
> > > In article <wclark2-61A5BA.22180408032...(a)charm.magnus.acs.ohio-
> > > state.edu>, wcla...(a)colnospamumbus.rr.com says...
> >
> > > > > You sounded very proud of the fact that you and your family didn't
> > > > > pay a
> > > > > penny for your fathers needed health care.
> >
> > > > My family had contributed the the National Health Service all their
> > > > lives, through their taxes. This fair and equitable system provided
> > > > very
> > > > well for us when my father was stricken, as it would for all citizens.
> > > > Quit trying to excuse your mean spirited little taunt.
> >
> > > The measure of a man is how he treats his family in its time of need. It
> > > appears that your were not there in deed nor in means.
> >
> > Is it your fervent desire to make yourself look more and more of a
> > moronic lowlife with each subsequent post? Because right now, you are
> > succeeding brilliantly in doing so.
> >
> > You know nothing of my interactions with, and role in, my family during
> > my father's progression through ALS. How dare you make such a
> > pathetically petty and snide comment. You are a truly contemptible
> > person.
>
> Really? If my Dad had ALS, I would give up whatever I had to make sure
> he got the *BEST* care he could get. I would not accept some nurse
> coming by twice a day, that's for sure. As it is, my sister has spent
> quite a bit getting my parents into a good facility and providing
> needed support. One thing where Canada is a bit better than the UK is
> you can still purchase some health care in Canada, but not much.

Again, I really resent your patronizing assumption that we did not
explore all possible options for the care of my father. We did get
absolutely the *BEST* care for him. We looked closely at all private
options, and none of them were better than the care he received. That is
not a criticism of the private care system, but an indication of how
good the public option was. The doctors and specialists were exactly the
same people, the district nurses (and please note that the "some nurse"
you so condescendingly refer to were fully qualified in every way for
this specialized job) were the best around, and no one recommended
removing my father from the comfort of his home and family to put him in
some institution, no matter how luxurious it might be. He was visited no
less often by the doctors, nor was he denied any ongoing care that he
could have got any other way. Te system just simply worked. I am sorry
you feel that you need to spend extra to get the best health care -
maybe you should just move to where it is the set standard? I am sure
you will feel vindicated because you spend thousands on buying care for
your parents - but that is your problem, and what you get for valuing
money above humanity. Live with it, and pray someone will be willing to
pay for you when the time comes.
From: William Clark on
In article
<bc01d3a6-cec1-4ff7-be69-cb1ab8b38034(a)g28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2002(a)att.net> wrote:

> On Mar 8, 5:08�pm, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-
> state.edu> wrote:
> > In article
> > <c6c0d51d-a4a7-478e-9982-7f951eca1...(a)19g2000yqu.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> > �Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> > > On Mar 8, 9:45 am, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-
> > > state.edu> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <4ac95e14-5204-4e8b-ac45-42d73355c...(a)i25g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > > Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Mar 7, 7:31 pm, William Clark <wcla...(a)colnospamumbus.rr.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <768b0082-debe-40e1-9223-9ae266827...(a)a18g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > > > > Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Mar 5, 3:40 pm, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-
> > > > > > > state.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > snippit....
> >
> > > > > > > That's probably about the care you could get for $2 million in
> > > > > > > the UK
> > > > > > > I suppose. ALS is a degenerative disease that you can do little
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > (although there are some treatments that supposedly ameliorate
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > cell damage somewhat).
> >
> > > > > > Good thing you snipped all the details of the care provided for my
> > > > > > father, otherwise your lean-spirited little gibe would really show
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > up for the hypocrite you are. Please don't presume to patronize me
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > ALS - I have forgotten more about the disease than you will ever
> > > > > > know
> > > > > > about it.
> >
> > > > > > > Having someone visit from time to time, regardless of the
> > > > > > > interval, is
> > > > > > > not that big a deal. Providing the actual medical treatment in a
> > > > > > > modern facility is quite another. "Home based care" is one of the
> > > > > > > major ways those who think we want this plan to cut costs. Home
> > > > > > > appendectomy anyone?
> >
> > > > > > "Having someone visit from time to time" is nothing at all to do
> > > > > > with in
> > > > > > home nursing care, provided twice a day (and more often if
> > > > > > requested).
> > > > > > It has nothing to do with family doctors that pay house calls to
> > > > > > needy
> > > > > > patients. I am glad that you think that this whole ordeal is "not
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > big a deal". A less charitable soul than me would wish the same
> > > > > > fate
> > > > > > upon you, and then see how much you try to belittle the process and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > care.
> >
> > > > > > The "home based care" that you sneer at (albeit in incomprehensible
> > > > > > syntax), was, in fact, the saving grace for my father and our
> > > > > > family.
> > > > > > None of us could bear thinking about having to move him out of his
> > > > > > home
> > > > > > into a hospice, as would have been the best outcome he could hope
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > here. However, I am also glad that you do finally admit that
> > > > > > providing
> > > > > > in home care is not only beneficial for the patient and family, but
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > also more efficient for the health service. Amen - you have just
> > > > > > taken
> > > > > > on board the principal argument for extending early and regular
> > > > > > health
> > > > > > care to those currently unable to afford it, and who will end up in
> > > > > > our
> > > > > > emergency rooms with chronic (and very expensive) illnesses.
> > > > > > Congratulations, and welcome to the side of reason.
> >
> > > > > Self righteous denigration? More of your Dr. Phil training there?
> > > > > Someone stopping by a couple of times a day isn't going to do much
> > > > > for
> > > > > an ALS victim. When they can take care of themselves, who needs
> > > > > it...when they can't, they need constant care. What would be really
> > > > > nice is to give them meds that ameliorate the condition. This would
> > > > > have to be done over their lifetime, and could prove quite costly,
> > > > > but
> > > > > some people might be willing to pay for it...but when the govt
> > > > > decides, it's going to be too expensive, isn't it?
> >
> > > > In your haste to be snide, you seem to forget that the name of the game
> > > > is health CARE. That includes curing illnesses AND caring for the sick,
> > > > even if their disease is incurable. I know you have a hard time
> > > > grasping
> > > > that concept, fixated as you are with who pays what for what, but do
> > > > try
> > > > a little harder. My father got all the medication that was available
> > > > for
> > > > this condition - the fact is that 20 years later, we still have made
> > > > little progress on ALS - and the health service paid for it all. So,
> > > > please try to get it into your head that this "socialized medicine"
> > > > that
> > > > you are so pathological about (even though you clearly know nothing
> > > > about it), provides BOTH medication and care, and cost is not an issue.
> > > > "Too expensive" ? Hell, no.
> >
> > > Really? If I get ALS, I would want full time *CARE* in a care facility
> > > with expertise in the area. Someone to come and clean me up twice a
> > > day at home is pretty grim to me. "Home care" is substandard, cheapo
> > > care in cases like this, but it is where you have to go when the
> > > people have to support a useless, politicized govt bureaucracy and the
> > > cost of health care with the money they earn and spend on health care.
> > > FWIW, no need to support the insurance companies either, IMHO. If you
> > > can pay for a house or a car, you can pay for health care, and people
> > > who are too good to work can sleep in their own bed.
> >
> > Well, it doesn't surprise me that the companionship and closeness of a
> > family doesn't mean much to you. That you lack such humanity is clear
> > from the way you dismiss fellow human beings in your posts. Clearly
> > being institutionalized will suit you better, and good luck.
> >
> > The rest of your post is just the usual bigoted ultra-right BS. Stick it.
>
> I would prefer to have quality care, period. Some nurse coming by my
> home twice a day doesn't do much for me, regardless. It's cut rate
> "care". If I need specialized care, that's what I want and I would
> want to have the option of choosing to spend my health care dollars
> providing such specialized care for myself.

Keep taking the "some nurse" Koolaid, because right now it is the only
dog you have in this fight. I am sorry that you have so much trouble
with English comprehension, and that you simply cannot accepts facts
that don;' gibe with your bigotry, but that's your problem. My father
got every bit of "specialized" care that he could - tell me when the
last time you heard of the chief consultant (FRCS, and all) at a major
teaching hospital paying house calls every week on a patient? I thought
not, so please try not to act quite so dumb. Just get the message that
money is not the criterion for everything.

So, keep whistling into the wind if you want, but you are making
yourself look more and more petty and mean spirited with every
successive post. No surprise there, though.
From: John B. on
On Mar 8, 2:51 pm, Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> On Mar 8, 9:45 am, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-
>
>
>
> state.edu> wrote:
> > In article
> > <4ac95e14-5204-4e8b-ac45-42d73355c...(a)i25g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >  Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> > > On Mar 7, 7:31 pm, William Clark <wcla...(a)colnospamumbus.rr.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <768b0082-debe-40e1-9223-9ae266827...(a)a18g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > >  Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Mar 5, 3:40 pm, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-
> > > > > state.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > > snippit....
>
> > > > > That's probably about the care you could get for $2 million in the UK
> > > > > I suppose. ALS is a degenerative disease that you can do little for
> > > > > (although there are some treatments that supposedly ameliorate the
> > > > > cell damage somewhat).
>
> > > > Good thing you snipped all the details of the care provided for my
> > > > father, otherwise your lean-spirited little gibe would really show you
> > > > up for the hypocrite you are. Please don't presume to patronize me on
> > > > ALS - I have forgotten more about the disease than you will ever know
> > > > about it.
>
> > > > > Having someone visit from time to time, regardless of the interval, is
> > > > > not that big a deal. Providing the actual medical treatment in a
> > > > > modern facility is quite another. "Home based care" is one of the
> > > > > major ways those who think we want this plan to cut costs. Home
> > > > > appendectomy anyone?
>
> > > > "Having someone visit from time to time" is nothing at all to do with in
> > > > home nursing care, provided twice a day (and more often if requested).
> > > > It has nothing to do with family doctors that pay house calls to needy
> > > > patients. I am glad that you think that this whole ordeal is "not that
> > > > big a deal". A less charitable soul than me would wish the same fate
> > > > upon you, and then see how much you try to belittle the process and the
> > > > care.
>
> > > > The "home based care" that you sneer at (albeit in incomprehensible
> > > > syntax), was, in fact, the saving grace for my father and our family.
> > > > None of us could bear thinking about having to move him out of his home
> > > > into a hospice, as would have been the best outcome he could hope for
> > > > here. However, I am also glad that you do finally admit that providing
> > > > in home care is not only beneficial for the patient and family, but is
> > > > also more efficient for the health service. Amen - you have just taken
> > > > on board the principal argument for extending early and regular health
> > > > care to those currently unable to afford it, and who will end up in our
> > > > emergency rooms with chronic (and very expensive) illnesses.
> > > > Congratulations, and welcome to the side of reason.
>
> > > Self righteous denigration? More of your Dr. Phil training there?
> > > Someone stopping by a couple of times a day isn't going to do much for
> > > an ALS victim. When they can take care of themselves, who needs
> > > it...when they can't, they need constant care. What would be really
> > > nice is to give them meds that ameliorate the condition. This would
> > > have to be done over their lifetime, and could prove quite costly, but
> > > some people might be willing to pay for it...but when the govt
> > > decides, it's going to be too expensive, isn't it?
>
> > In your haste to be snide, you seem to forget that the name of the game
> > is health CARE. That includes curing illnesses AND caring for the sick,
> > even if their disease is incurable. I know you have a hard time grasping
> > that concept, fixated as you are with who pays what for what, but do try
> > a little harder. My father got all the medication that was available for
> > this condition - the fact is that 20 years later, we still have made
> > little progress on ALS - and the health service paid for it all. So,
> > please try to get it into your head that this "socialized medicine" that
> > you are so pathological about (even though you clearly know nothing
> > about it), provides BOTH medication and care, and cost is not an issue.
> > "Too expensive" ? Hell, no.
>
> Really? If I get ALS, I would want full time *CARE* in a care facility
> with expertise in the area. Someone to come and clean me up twice a
> day at home is pretty grim to me. "Home care" is substandard, cheapo
> care in cases like this, but it is where you have to go when the
> people have to support a useless, politicized govt bureaucracy and the
> cost of health care with the money they earn and spend on health care.
> FWIW, no need to support the insurance companies either, IMHO. If you
> can pay for a house or a car, you can pay for health care, and people
> who are too good to work can sleep in their own bed.

I find it absolutely astounding that you would purport to lecture
William or me about ALS. He lost his father and I lost my mother to
it. Everything you've said here is bullshit. There is no such thing as
a full-time care facility with expertise in ALS. Home care is NOT
"cheapo," or substandard. You know absolutely nothing about this
disease, or about health care in general, and you'd be well-advised to
shut up about it.
From: John B. on
On Mar 8, 2:53 pm, Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> On Mar 8, 10:03 am, "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 8, 8:54 am, Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 7, 7:31 pm, William Clark <wcla...(a)colnospamumbus.rr.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > In article
> > > > <768b0082-debe-40e1-9223-9ae266827...(a)a18g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > >  Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Mar 5, 3:40 pm, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-
> > > > > state.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > > snippit....
>
> > > > > That's probably about the care you could get for $2 million in the UK
> > > > > I suppose. ALS is a degenerative disease that you can do little for
> > > > > (although there are some treatments that supposedly ameliorate the
> > > > > cell damage somewhat).
>
> > > > Good thing you snipped all the details of the care provided for my
> > > > father, otherwise your lean-spirited little gibe would really show you
> > > > up for the hypocrite you are. Please don't presume to patronize me on
> > > > ALS - I have forgotten more about the disease than you will ever know
> > > > about it.
>
> > > > > Having someone visit from time to time, regardless of the interval, is
> > > > > not that big a deal. Providing the actual medical treatment in a
> > > > > modern facility is quite another. "Home based care" is one of the
> > > > > major ways those who think we want this plan to cut costs. Home
> > > > > appendectomy anyone?
>
> > > > "Having someone visit from time to time" is nothing at all to do with in
> > > > home nursing care, provided twice a day (and more often if requested).
> > > > It has nothing to do with family doctors that pay house calls to needy
> > > > patients. I am glad that you think that this whole ordeal is "not that
> > > > big a deal". A less charitable soul than me would wish the same fate
> > > > upon you, and then see how much you try to belittle the process and the
> > > > care.
>
> > > > The "home based care" that you sneer at (albeit in incomprehensible
> > > > syntax), was, in fact, the saving grace for my father and our family.
> > > > None of us could bear thinking about having to move him out of his home
> > > > into a hospice, as would have been the best outcome he could hope for
> > > > here. However, I am also glad that you do finally admit that providing
> > > > in home care is not only beneficial for the patient and family, but is
> > > > also more efficient for the health service. Amen - you have just taken
> > > > on board the principal argument for extending early and regular health
> > > > care to those currently unable to afford it, and who will end up in our
> > > > emergency rooms with chronic (and very expensive) illnesses.
> > > > Congratulations, and welcome to the side of reason.
>
> > > Self righteous denigration? More of your Dr. Phil training there?
> > > Someone stopping by a couple of times a day isn't going to do much for
> > > an ALS victim. When they can take care of themselves, who needs
> > > it...when they can't, they need constant care. What would be really
> > > nice is to give them meds that ameliorate the condition. This would
> > > have to be done over their lifetime, and could prove quite costly, but
> > > some people might be willing to pay for it...but when the govt
> > > decides, it's going to be too expensive, isn't it?
>
> > There is no medication that ameliorates the condition.
>
> That's not true. In some cases, like SOD disorder, you can ameliorate
> cell damage if you start treatments real early, well before the onset
> of observable symptoms. However, as you have suggested, once the
> neurons are gone, they are gone.

My mother had ALS for nine years. I learned everything there is to
learn about it. There is no medication that ameliorates the
progression of ALS.