health care
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From: William Clark on 9 Mar 2010 16:57 In article <2888287f-fd8c-4ef9-a455-e532a4ecfd61(a)m37g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>, "John B." <johnb505(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Mar 8, 2:51�pm, Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote: > > On Mar 8, 9:45�am, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio- > > > > > > > > state.edu> wrote: > > > In article > > > <4ac95e14-5204-4e8b-ac45-42d73355c...(a)i25g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > �Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote: > > > > On Mar 7, 7:31�pm, William Clark <wcla...(a)colnospamumbus.rr.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > In article > > > > > <768b0082-debe-40e1-9223-9ae266827...(a)a18g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > �Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote: > > > > > > On Mar 5, 3:40�pm, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio- > > > > > > state.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > snippit.... > > > > > > > > That's probably about the care you could get for $2 million in the > > > > > > UK > > > > > > I suppose. ALS is a degenerative disease that you can do little for > > > > > > (although there are some treatments that supposedly ameliorate the > > > > > > cell damage somewhat). > > > > > > > Good thing you snipped all the details of the care provided for my > > > > > father, otherwise your lean-spirited little gibe would really show > > > > > you > > > > > up for the hypocrite you are. Please don't presume to patronize me on > > > > > ALS - I have forgotten more about the disease than you will ever know > > > > > about it. > > > > > > > > Having someone visit from time to time, regardless of the interval, > > > > > > is > > > > > > not that big a deal. Providing the actual medical treatment in a > > > > > > modern facility is quite another. "Home based care" is one of the > > > > > > major ways those who think we want this plan to cut costs. Home > > > > > > appendectomy anyone? > > > > > > > "Having someone visit from time to time" is nothing at all to do with > > > > > in > > > > > home nursing care, provided twice a day (and more often if > > > > > requested). > > > > > It has nothing to do with family doctors that pay house calls to > > > > > needy > > > > > patients. I am glad that you think that this whole ordeal is "not > > > > > that > > > > > big a deal". A less charitable soul than me would wish the same fate > > > > > upon you, and then see how much you try to belittle the process and > > > > > the > > > > > care. > > > > > > > The "home based care" that you sneer at (albeit in incomprehensible > > > > > syntax), was, in fact, the saving grace for my father and our family. > > > > > None of us could bear thinking about having to move him out of his > > > > > home > > > > > into a hospice, as would have been the best outcome he could hope for > > > > > here. However, I am also glad that you do finally admit that > > > > > providing > > > > > in home care is not only beneficial for the patient and family, but > > > > > is > > > > > also more efficient for the health service. Amen - you have just > > > > > taken > > > > > on board the principal argument for extending early and regular > > > > > health > > > > > care to those currently unable to afford it, and who will end up in > > > > > our > > > > > emergency rooms with chronic (and very expensive) illnesses. > > > > > Congratulations, and welcome to the side of reason. > > > > > > Self righteous denigration? More of your Dr. Phil training there? > > > > Someone stopping by a couple of times a day isn't going to do much for > > > > an ALS victim. When they can take care of themselves, who needs > > > > it...when they can't, they need constant care. What would be really > > > > nice is to give them meds that ameliorate the condition. This would > > > > have to be done over their lifetime, and could prove quite costly, but > > > > some people might be willing to pay for it...but when the govt > > > > decides, it's going to be too expensive, isn't it? > > > > > In your haste to be snide, you seem to forget that the name of the game > > > is health CARE. That includes curing illnesses AND caring for the sick, > > > even if their disease is incurable. I know you have a hard time grasping > > > that concept, fixated as you are with who pays what for what, but do try > > > a little harder. My father got all the medication that was available for > > > this condition - the fact is that 20 years later, we still have made > > > little progress on ALS - and the health service paid for it all. So, > > > please try to get it into your head that this "socialized medicine" that > > > you are so pathological about (even though you clearly know nothing > > > about it), provides BOTH medication and care, and cost is not an issue. > > > "Too expensive" ? Hell, no. > > > > Really? If I get ALS, I would want full time *CARE* in a care facility > > with expertise in the area. Someone to come and clean me up twice a > > day at home is pretty grim to me. "Home care" is substandard, cheapo > > care in cases like this, but it is where you have to go when the > > people have to support a useless, politicized govt bureaucracy and the > > cost of health care with the money they earn and spend on health care. > > FWIW, no need to support the insurance companies either, IMHO. If you > > can pay for a house or a car, you can pay for health care, and people > > who are too good to work can sleep in their own bed. > > I find it absolutely astounding that you would purport to lecture > William or me about ALS. He lost his father and I lost my mother to > it. Everything you've said here is bullshit. There is no such thing as > a full-time care facility with expertise in ALS. Home care is NOT > "cheapo," or substandard. You know absolutely nothing about this > disease, or about health care in general, and you'd be well-advised to > shut up about it. Yes, but he is desperate to sustain his bigoted political stance. To him, that trumps human decency or humanity.
From: William Clark on 9 Mar 2010 16:58 In article <2d3ccc13-8581-407a-9ed1-ddddb077c3a7(a)z35g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, "John B." <johnb505(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Mar 8, 2:53�pm, Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote: > > On Mar 8, 10:03�am, "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Mar 8, 8:54�am, Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote: > > > > > > On Mar 7, 7:31�pm, William Clark <wcla...(a)colnospamumbus.rr.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > In article > > > > > <768b0082-debe-40e1-9223-9ae266827...(a)a18g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > �Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote: > > > > > > On Mar 5, 3:40�pm, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio- > > > > > > state.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > snippit.... > > > > > > > > That's probably about the care you could get for $2 million in the > > > > > > UK > > > > > > I suppose. ALS is a degenerative disease that you can do little for > > > > > > (although there are some treatments that supposedly ameliorate the > > > > > > cell damage somewhat). > > > > > > > Good thing you snipped all the details of the care provided for my > > > > > father, otherwise your lean-spirited little gibe would really show > > > > > you > > > > > up for the hypocrite you are. Please don't presume to patronize me on > > > > > ALS - I have forgotten more about the disease than you will ever know > > > > > about it. > > > > > > > > Having someone visit from time to time, regardless of the interval, > > > > > > is > > > > > > not that big a deal. Providing the actual medical treatment in a > > > > > > modern facility is quite another. "Home based care" is one of the > > > > > > major ways those who think we want this plan to cut costs. Home > > > > > > appendectomy anyone? > > > > > > > "Having someone visit from time to time" is nothing at all to do with > > > > > in > > > > > home nursing care, provided twice a day (and more often if > > > > > requested). > > > > > It has nothing to do with family doctors that pay house calls to > > > > > needy > > > > > patients. I am glad that you think that this whole ordeal is "not > > > > > that > > > > > big a deal". A less charitable soul than me would wish the same fate > > > > > upon you, and then see how much you try to belittle the process and > > > > > the > > > > > care. > > > > > > > The "home based care" that you sneer at (albeit in incomprehensible > > > > > syntax), was, in fact, the saving grace for my father and our family. > > > > > None of us could bear thinking about having to move him out of his > > > > > home > > > > > into a hospice, as would have been the best outcome he could hope for > > > > > here. However, I am also glad that you do finally admit that > > > > > providing > > > > > in home care is not only beneficial for the patient and family, but > > > > > is > > > > > also more efficient for the health service. Amen - you have just > > > > > taken > > > > > on board the principal argument for extending early and regular > > > > > health > > > > > care to those currently unable to afford it, and who will end up in > > > > > our > > > > > emergency rooms with chronic (and very expensive) illnesses. > > > > > Congratulations, and welcome to the side of reason. > > > > > > Self righteous denigration? More of your Dr. Phil training there? > > > > Someone stopping by a couple of times a day isn't going to do much for > > > > an ALS victim. When they can take care of themselves, who needs > > > > it...when they can't, they need constant care. What would be really > > > > nice is to give them meds that ameliorate the condition. This would > > > > have to be done over their lifetime, and could prove quite costly, but > > > > some people might be willing to pay for it...but when the govt > > > > decides, it's going to be too expensive, isn't it? > > > > > There is no medication that ameliorates the condition. > > > > That's not true. In some cases, like SOD disorder, you can ameliorate > > cell damage if you start treatments real early, well before the onset > > of observable symptoms. However, as you have suggested, once the > > neurons are gone, they are gone. > > My mother had ALS for nine years. I learned everything there is to > learn about it. There is no medication that ameliorates the > progression of ALS. Oh, but you are talking here to an expert on absolutely everything. Everything :-)
From: Dinosaur_Sr on 9 Mar 2010 17:01 On Mar 9, 3:57 pm, "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Mar 8, 2:51 pm, Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote: > > > > > On Mar 8, 9:45 am, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio- > > > state.edu> wrote: > > > In article > > > <4ac95e14-5204-4e8b-ac45-42d73355c...(a)i25g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, > > > > Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote: > > > > On Mar 7, 7:31 pm, William Clark <wcla...(a)colnospamumbus.rr.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > In article > > > > > <768b0082-debe-40e1-9223-9ae266827...(a)a18g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote: > > > > > > On Mar 5, 3:40 pm, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio- > > > > > > state.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > snippit.... > > > > > > > That's probably about the care you could get for $2 million in the UK > > > > > > I suppose. ALS is a degenerative disease that you can do little for > > > > > > (although there are some treatments that supposedly ameliorate the > > > > > > cell damage somewhat). > > > > > > Good thing you snipped all the details of the care provided for my > > > > > father, otherwise your lean-spirited little gibe would really show you > > > > > up for the hypocrite you are. Please don't presume to patronize me on > > > > > ALS - I have forgotten more about the disease than you will ever know > > > > > about it. > > > > > > > Having someone visit from time to time, regardless of the interval, is > > > > > > not that big a deal. Providing the actual medical treatment in a > > > > > > modern facility is quite another. "Home based care" is one of the > > > > > > major ways those who think we want this plan to cut costs. Home > > > > > > appendectomy anyone? > > > > > > "Having someone visit from time to time" is nothing at all to do with in > > > > > home nursing care, provided twice a day (and more often if requested). > > > > > It has nothing to do with family doctors that pay house calls to needy > > > > > patients. I am glad that you think that this whole ordeal is "not that > > > > > big a deal". A less charitable soul than me would wish the same fate > > > > > upon you, and then see how much you try to belittle the process and the > > > > > care. > > > > > > The "home based care" that you sneer at (albeit in incomprehensible > > > > > syntax), was, in fact, the saving grace for my father and our family. > > > > > None of us could bear thinking about having to move him out of his home > > > > > into a hospice, as would have been the best outcome he could hope for > > > > > here. However, I am also glad that you do finally admit that providing > > > > > in home care is not only beneficial for the patient and family, but is > > > > > also more efficient for the health service. Amen - you have just taken > > > > > on board the principal argument for extending early and regular health > > > > > care to those currently unable to afford it, and who will end up in our > > > > > emergency rooms with chronic (and very expensive) illnesses. > > > > > Congratulations, and welcome to the side of reason. > > > > > Self righteous denigration? More of your Dr. Phil training there? > > > > Someone stopping by a couple of times a day isn't going to do much for > > > > an ALS victim. When they can take care of themselves, who needs > > > > it...when they can't, they need constant care. What would be really > > > > nice is to give them meds that ameliorate the condition. This would > > > > have to be done over their lifetime, and could prove quite costly, but > > > > some people might be willing to pay for it...but when the govt > > > > decides, it's going to be too expensive, isn't it? > > > > In your haste to be snide, you seem to forget that the name of the game > > > is health CARE. That includes curing illnesses AND caring for the sick, > > > even if their disease is incurable. I know you have a hard time grasping > > > that concept, fixated as you are with who pays what for what, but do try > > > a little harder. My father got all the medication that was available for > > > this condition - the fact is that 20 years later, we still have made > > > little progress on ALS - and the health service paid for it all. So, > > > please try to get it into your head that this "socialized medicine" that > > > you are so pathological about (even though you clearly know nothing > > > about it), provides BOTH medication and care, and cost is not an issue. > > > "Too expensive" ? Hell, no. > > > Really? If I get ALS, I would want full time *CARE* in a care facility > > with expertise in the area. Someone to come and clean me up twice a > > day at home is pretty grim to me. "Home care" is substandard, cheapo > > care in cases like this, but it is where you have to go when the > > people have to support a useless, politicized govt bureaucracy and the > > cost of health care with the money they earn and spend on health care. > > FWIW, no need to support the insurance companies either, IMHO. If you > > can pay for a house or a car, you can pay for health care, and people > > who are too good to work can sleep in their own bed. > > I find it absolutely astounding that you would purport to lecture > William or me about ALS. He lost his father and I lost my mother to > it. Everything you've said here is bullshit. There is no such thing as > a full-time care facility with expertise in ALS. Home care is NOT > "cheapo," or substandard. You know absolutely nothing about this > disease, or about health care in general, and you'd be well-advised to > shut up about it. Rubbish. I've seen the home care scam up front and personal. They push you out of the hospital ASAP, barely conscious in some instances. Home care is an excuse for cut rate care, and the emotional rubbish thrown out to support it indicates a cynical, almost evil lack of compassion by the system.
From: bknight on 9 Mar 2010 17:31 On Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:59:51 -0800 (PST), Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2002(a)att.net> wrote: <clip> >I am in no way sorry that I don't buy your sanctimonious BS. Some >nurse is just that. When one has a serious chronic, degenerative >disorder like ALS, a nurse is not qualified to deal with problems that >come up. You need a specialist MD, and if you don't know, and you >sound like you don't, ALS patients can have a variety of very serious >issues develop at any time. You need specialized, qualified people to >deal with this, and such care is in fact available in the US to >anyone...of course they have to pay for it...and if you have a problem >with that then perhaps you should lead the way by providing your >relatively worthless service free of charge! <clip> Good God Rob. How can you, with any degree of integrity, question a man who has had ALS in his family? How can you question a man's dedication to his father with such a disease? Do you not have a scintilla of embarrassment in being such a know-it-all? Are you aware that you come off as a callous prick? In short, this is one of the typical Frostback situations where you're caught blowing wind and then attack the person who is much more qualified than you in a subject. It never flies. BK
From: bknight on 9 Mar 2010 17:34
On Tue, 9 Mar 2010 14:01:24 -0800 (PST), Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2002(a)att.net> wrote: >On Mar 9, 3:57�pm, "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On Mar 8, 2:51�pm, Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote: >> I find it absolutely astounding that you would purport to lecture >> William or me about ALS. �He lost his father and I lost my mother to >> it. Everything you've said here is bullshit. There is no such thing as >> a full-time care facility with expertise in ALS. Home care is NOT >> "cheapo," or substandard. You know absolutely nothing about this >> disease, or about health care in general, and you'd be well-advised to >> shut up about it. > >Rubbish. I've seen the home care scam up front and personal. They push >you out of the hospital ASAP, barely conscious in some instances. Home >care is an excuse for cut rate care, and the emotional rubbish thrown >out to support it indicates a cynical, almost evil lack of compassion >by the system. You have the balls to use the word compassion in this instance? Stick to botany, even if you can't get a position with a major institution teaching it. BK |