From: John B. on
On Feb 20, 12:09 pm, Jack Hollis <xslee...(a)> wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:52:34 -0800 (PST), "John B."
> <johnb...(a)> wrote:
> >And while you're at it, find an industrialized country whose health
> >care costs are as large a proportion of GDP as ours, or consume as
> >much of the federal budget as ours.
> If you want the best, you have to pay for it.  Would you rather pay
> less and die or pay more and live?

That is a gross oversimplification of a complicated issue. There is no
empirical evidence that the U.S. health care system is "the best."
Even if it is, how much better is it than the UK's, or France's?
From: gray asphalt on

"Moderate" <> wrote in message
> "BAR" <screw(a)> wrote in message
> news:MPG.25e9a7b64ddbbf34989c15(a)
>> In article <hvCfn.818$BD2.448(a)newsfe14.iad>, dontwrite(a) says...
>>> Oh yeah ... and I suppose "manifest destiny"
>>> was an excuse for imperialism. I'm sure the
>>> Mexicans weren't bothered at all by the theft of
>>> Texas, and how much other land?
>> War or the threat of war has determined the political and national
>> boundaries of kingdoms and countries.
>> One of the penalties of losing armed conflict is that your military will
>> may be destroyed and you may lose some or all of your territory.
>>> So your arguement is that since government is
>>> bad, bug business is good? And allowing big
>>> business to dictate to government is a good
>>> thing?
>> Big business employs people and provides them with the money they need
>> to live. Big business also provides the government with a pool of
>> working people from which to extract money in the form of taxes.
>>> I'll go with Ross Perot on these issues. Remember
>>> him, the guy who critisized General Motors for
>>> their hubris and unwillingness to adapt and their
>>> lack of concern for workers ... Well Gm certainly
>>> has prospered and if they could just get government
>>> to take back the bailout money, they'd be even better.
>> GM's money was good enough for H Ross to put in his pocket. $2.5 billion
>> was some real money back in 1984.
>> I don't suppose you ever worked for H Ross either. I was interviewed by
>> the EDS and was told that I would have to shave my mustache and get rid
>> of my gray suits if I accepted the offer. The USMCR let me keep my
>> mustache.
> My father worked for EDS. Perot would call him at 2:00 a.m. to talk shop.
> He didn't have much good to say about Perot.

So? I have a lot of good things to say about Perot.
I envy your father, though. Does he have any stories
- good or bad?

From: gray asphalt on

"Howard Brazee" <howard(a)> wrote in message
> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 08:03:44 -0500, BAR <screw(a)> wrote:
>>I don't suppose you ever worked for H Ross either. I was interviewed by
>>the EDS and was told that I would have to shave my mustache and get rid
>>of my gray suits if I accepted the offer. The USMCR let me keep my
> I shaved off my full beard twice - once when I started AFROTC, and
> once when I started working for EDS.
> --
> "In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
> than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
> to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
> - James Madison

So what did you think or Ross? Did you happen
to know Kevin Lynn? or Russ Verney?

From: assimilate on

On 20-Feb-2010, Carbon <nobrac(a)> wrote:

> > On 19-Feb-2010, Carbon <nobrac(a)> wrote:
> >
> >> I am in favor of universal healthcare mainly because it is cheaper,
> >
> > no matter how often you say this, it will never be true.
> The US spends more per capita on healthcare than any other country in
> the world. Average life expectancy in other first world countries with
> universal healthcare is much better than the US. Both of these stats can
> easily be verified. I can only wonder at the strength of your
> fanaticism.

sorry but you need to mesure true cost. The real advantage of UH (for the
govt) is that it hides the real costs, much like your co-pay hides the real
cost of care.

From: dene on

"Carbon" <nobrac(a)> wrote in message
> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:51:48 -0500, BAR wrote:
> > In article <4b800364$0$4876$9a6e19ea(a)>,
> > nobrac(a) says...
> >>
> >>>>> If you want Universal Health Care there are many countries around
> >>>>> the world that offer it and there is no one stopping you from
> >>>>> emigrating to any of them except you.
> >>>>
> >>>> I win yet again.
> >>>
> >>> Good, take your ball and go home.
> >>>
> >>> We who are 100% invested in the USA do not want what you who are
> >>> just a guest here want.
> >>
> >> Aw, you're just saying that because your poor brain won't cough up
> >> anything better.
> >
> > For all of your wants and desires you are still a guest in the USA.
> > You have no skin in the game. If you want to become a citizen I will
> > welcome you with open arms. But, standing on the corner yelling and
> > screaming at the building and telling them they are doing everything
> > wrong doesn't give you a leg of credibility to stand upon. We didn't
> > ask for your opinion and we don't care about your opinion.
> >
> > If you will notice most of us who oppose socialized medicine and
> > universal health care don't care that Canada, the UK, France or
> > anywhere else has it, we just don't want it here in the USA. We are
> > not trying to tell other countries that they have to operate the way
> > the USA does.
> >
> > There is nothing preventing you from moving to any country that has a
> > system of health care that suites your wants and desires.
> I have lots of skin in the game. I pay taxes every year, lots of them. I
> pay very high healthcare premiums. I am getting very little in exchange.
> I work in IT. Like a lot of businesses, my company has shed a percentage
> of its permanent workforce and any new hires are brought on as
> contractors. You would have liked this one fellow. He kept telling me
> how the US healthcare system is the best one in the world, even though
> as a contractor he had no benefits. He had a cyst appear on his stomach.
> It got to the point where he couldn't ignore it and he had to get dug
> out, on his lunch hour, as an outpatient.
> It turns out he has cancer. I saw him the other day. All his hair has
> fallen out and he has big bags under his eyes. I assume he's getting
> chemo somehow. If he does survive I imagine he will lose everything he
> owns. I don't know the particulars about how his healthcare coverage
> lapsed, but I do know he was laid off from his previous job and it took
> him a long time to find a new one. He has kids to look after. I assume
> he decided that paying the mortgage and putting food on the table was
> more important than health insurance.

Assume is right. There is always the untold story. Find out what it is.

> This guy is not some permanently unemployed loser. He is a competent IT
> professional. But there is a recession on and he couldn't find work. It
> seems pretty obvious to me that if he had access to reasonable
> healthcare he would have been able to go to the doctor when the symptoms
> first appeared. It surely would have been cheaper to treat then as well.
> There would be one less medical bankruptcy. Our premiums would be lower.
> Bert, this guy could be you. It could be one of your friends. The
> current system is unjust.

The current system needs a valve job....not an engine replacement.