From: John B. on
On Feb 22, 5:04 pm, Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> On Feb 22, 4:49 pm, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-
>
>
>
>
>
> state.edu> wrote:
> > In article
> > <a2ef6843-e23d-4282-98b3-8bf670aab...(a)g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >  Dinosaur_Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
> > > On Feb 22, 1:51 pm, "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Feb 22, 11:37 am, Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Feb 22, 11:18 am, "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Feb 22, 9:43 am, Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Feb 21, 4:38 pm, "John B." <johnb...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Feb 21, 3:27 pm, Dinosaur Sr <frostback2...(a)att.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Feb 18, 6:16 pm, Carbon <nob...(a)nospam.tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:18:15 +0000, assimilate wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On 17-Feb-2010, Carbon <nob...(a)nospam.tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Obviously, that totally misses the point. The point would
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> be the
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> systemic corruption that makes such gross overbilling an
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> everyday
> > > > > > > > > > >>>> event.
>
> > > > > > > > > > >>> Stop whining.
>
> > > > > > > > > > >> I should just allow myself to be raped like all you
> > > > > > > > > > >> ideologues, huh?
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Better that than I get raped by your Universal Healthcare.
>
> > > > > > > > > > Please find any country on the planet with universal healthcare
> > > > > > > > > > that has
> > > > > > > > > > higher per capita healthcare costs than the United States. Go
> > > > > > > > > > ahead,
> > > > > > > > > > we'll wait.
>
> > > > > > > > > The govt dictates costs and service levels in those countries. In
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > US people can choose from a free market.
>
> > > > > > > > Yes, Americans can shop around for health insurance.  They can shop
> > > > > > > > around for Bentleys and Maseratis, too.
>
> > > > > > > Americans can choose to purchase the health care they want.
> > > > > > > Individuals can choose to allocate as they wish, not have the costs
> > > > > > > forced on them, in advance, by the govt. Some people choose not to
> > > > > > > pay
> > > > > > > the 10K pa or so health care costs, that's their problem. They'll pay
> > > > > > > that for a car, or a house, but not health care...so people like you
> > > > > > > want to tax people to the extend of 20K pa to get 10k worth of
> > > > > > > services delivered purely to serve the political ends of the govt.-
> > > > > > > Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > Silly Americans, wasting their money on such frivilous luxuries as
> > > > > > housing and cars. Next thing you know, they'll want to start buying
> > > > > > food and clothing!
>
> > > > > You can't have everything. You want to drive an expensive German car
> > > > > and live in a big house, and that doesn't leave enough for health
> > > > > insurance, that's your choice.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > I didn't say anything about expensive German cars or big houses.
>
> > > Doesn't matter what kind of car it is. Take the bus. It's a matter of
> > > allocating your own personal wealth to serve your own needs.
>
> > No, because most cities in the US don't have public transport. The likes
> > of you and Bertie aren't willing to pay for that either.
>
> Public transport in the US is lacking because they bus kids to school,
> and low income people can afford cars. Not much market for the public
> transit system in most US locations.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Not much market? Are you serious? Have you ever set foot in a major
city? Have you ever used public transportation in NY or DC or
Chicago?
From: Dinosaur_Sr on
On Feb 22, 5:05 pm, William Clark <cl...(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-
state.edu> wrote:

Amazing how that sticks in your craw. My only conclusion at this point
is that you have no academic expertise yourself, and got a degree
because you can operate some equipment, and are psycho when confronted
by anyone with any academic accomplishments at all.

The fact you cannot see how and why these govt boondoggles screw the
poor, even when articulated elegantly tells me you are a typical
socialist hypocrite. The fact is, despite being well of yourself, you
want other people to pay for your health care. You simply use the poor
as a debating point to get what you want, and really could care less
about them.

From: MNMikeW on

"William Clark" <clark(a)nospam.matsceng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
news:clark-4D0D95.17005822022010(a)charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...
> In article <MPG.25ec3f36a367d11e989c3f(a)news.giganews.com>,
> BAR <screw(a)you.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <lmp3o5dcc630gnbqemhndem8o57gt8u3mt(a)4ax.com>,
>> xsleeper(a)aol.com says...
>> >
>> > On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:27:38 -0800, Don Kirkman <donsno2(a)charter.net>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >not is it true that the government *does* take taxes at the
>> > >point of a gun--that's as much an exaggeration as that everyone who
>> > >donates does it altruistically.
>> >
>> > It is a bit melodramatic, but if you don't pay your taxes, men with
>> > guns come to arrest you. They'll use them if they have to but a more
>> > likely scenario is that they lead you away in handcuffs.
>>
>> If you disagree with them at all and refuse to go with them, they will
>> pull out their guns and point them at you in order to get you to comply
>> with the governments dictates.
>
> Oh, gosh, and will they take away my teddy bear, too?

They might leave you that. But will take everything else

*** Overall proposal is a net tax hike of $629 billion over 10 years ***

Title I (Net tax hike of $85 billion)

Same individual credit as Senate bill (-$102 billion)


Same small business credit as Senate bill (-$38 billion)


Reinsurance program ($121 billion)


Individual and employer insurance mandate penalties ($43 billion)


Associated effects on coverage provisions ($61 billion)

Title IX (Net tax hike of $544 billion)

Corporate 1099-MISC information reporting ($17 billion): Requires businesses
to send 1099-MISC information tax forms to corporations (currently limited
to individuals), a huge compliance burden for small employers

Black liquor credit repeal ($24 billion): This is an excise tax hike which
is contained in the President's budget

Economic substance doctrine ($4 billion): This would require taxpayers to
prove to the IRS that a perfectly-legal tax deduction or strategy is
"economically substantial," and not simply a way to pay less in taxes

Medicare payroll tax hike ($87 billion): Increases Medicare payroll tax rate
from 2.9 percent to 3.8 percent on wages and self-employment income which
exceeds $200,000 ($250,000 married)

Apply Medicare tax to unearned income ($150 billion): Would apply this new,
higher Medicare tax rate to unearned income (interest, dividends, rent,
royalties, and passive investment in pass-throughs like S-corporations and
partnerships--capital gains not mentioned)

Cadillac plan excise tax ($125 billion): 40 percent excise tax on health
insurance plans to the extent they exceed $27,500 in cost for family plans,
and $10,200 for single plans

Innovator medicine company tax ($22 billion): $2.3 billion annual tax on the
industry imposed relative to share of sales made that year

Medical device manufacturer tax ($19 billion): $2 billion annual tax on the
industry imposed relative to shares of sales made that year. Exempts items
retailing for <$100. Rises to $3 billion annually in 2017

Health insurance company tax ($60 billion): $10 billion annual tax on the
industry imposed relative to health insurance premiums collected that year.
Phases in gradually until 2017. Fully-imposed on firms with $50 million in
profits

Tanning tax ($3 billion): New 10% excise tax on indoor tanning salons

Increase HSA distribution penalty by 10 percentage points ($1 billion):
Increases additional tax on non-medical early withdrawals from an HSA from
10 to 20 percent, disadvantaging them relative to IRAs and other
tax-advantaged accounts, which remain at 10 percent.

$2500 FSA cap a.k.a. special needs kiddie tax ($13 billion): Imposes cap on
FSAs of $2500 (now unlimited). Indexed to inflation after 2011

Employer-provided retiree Rx deduction repeal ($5 billion)

Medical itemized deduction "haircut" raised from 7.5 to 10 percent of AGI
($15 billion)

$500,000 executive compensation limit for health insurance companies ($1
billion)

Miscellaneous tax relief (-$2 billion)


From: Carbon on
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:53:41 -0800, Dinosaur_Sr wrote:
> On Feb 21, 6:17 pm, Carbon <nob...(a)nospam.tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:27:12 -0800, Dinosaur_Sr wrote:
>>> On Feb 18, 6:16 pm, Carbon <nob...(a)nospam.tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:18:15 +0000, assimilate wrote:
>>>>> On 17-Feb-2010, Carbon <nob...(a)nospam.tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obviously, that totally misses the point. The point would be the
>>>>>>>> systemic corruption that makes such gross overbilling an
>>>>>>>> everyday event.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stop whining.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I should just allow myself to be raped like all you ideologues,
>>>>>> huh?
>>>>>
>>>>> Better that than I get raped by your Universal Healthcare.
>>>>
>>>> Please find any country on the planet with universal healthcare that
>>>> has higher per capita healthcare costs than the United States. Go
>>>> ahead, we'll wait.
>>>
>>> The govt dictates costs and service levels in those countries. In the
>>> US people can choose from a free market.
>>
>> In a free market there would be competition and therefore prices at
>> least somewhat in line with the cost of production. I hope you're not
>> going to try to argue that either is the case with big healthcare in
>> the US.
>
> Moreso than in Canada, where the govt dictates prices. You know, if
> Americans stop paying the bulk of the cost of pharmaceuticals and
> related research, people like Canadians will have to pay more. That is
> an injustice, IMHO, that could be redressed here. Pharmaceutical
> research is declining in at least parts of the US. like say Michigan.

Given a choice between being "forced" to pay $50, or having the freedom
to choose between $75 and $80, which would you take?
From: Carbon on
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:27:15 +0000, assimilate wrote:
> On 21-Feb-2010, Howard Brazee <howard(a)brazee.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Cost here, life expectancy there. Are you suggesting that actual
>>> facts in the form of verifiable statistics are somehow more
>>> "superficial" than your and Bert's ideologically driven rants?
>>> You're kidding, right?
>>
>> This is becoming stylish. Periodically it becomes politically
>> successful to rail against intellectuals. Not to the extent that
>> Pol Pot did (killing everybody who wore glasses), but close to Sarah
>> Palin levels.
>>
>> When people do this, a common thing is to give all opinions the same
>> weight. Evidence doesn't matter.
>
> statistics are not evidence as they can be played with to support any
> opinion under the sun

So you keep saying. Funny, you haven't produced even the slightest
argument as to what could be wrong with:

1. Cost of healthcare per capita as a percentage of GDP.

2. Average life expectancy by country.