one plane verus 2 plane swing
in [Golf]
|
Prev: BOM vs Bangenstein
Next: featherlite clubs
From: AKA Gray Asphalt 2 on 24 Aug 2006 03:11 If you had a choice to have either "one plane/ two plane swing" video or "the stretching video" that has Gary Player and Arnold Palmer endorsing it for no money ... I'm going to buy the stretching one first, but Little Pro, and One Plane are on the list. I can't give any good reason why I haven't read "SLAP". I should. "Birdie Bill" <bighorn_bill(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1156379488.475380.111680(a)74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com... > David Laville wrote: >> On 23 Aug 2006 09:39:53 -0700, blakestah(a)gmail.com wrote: >> >> >There is no two-plane swing. >> >> Yes there is and the majority of tour players use it. The club starts >> on the plane of the club at address and shifts to a plane that runs >> through the right shoulder position at the top. >> >> However I have yet to see anyone use a one-plane swing and not even >> Hardy teaches one. What he advocates is a single "plane angle" in >> which the club stays parallel to the original plane established at >> address but still shifts to another plane. To be a one-plane swing >> the player would have to keep the club on the same plane established >> at address. >> >> >There is a swing in which the arms and torso work together naturally, >> >formalized earliest and most clearly by Hogan. >> >> The plane isn't defined by the arms and torso. >> >> >Then there is a swing in which the arms cross the lines of the torso, >> >and a precise >> >series of compensations can allow decent shotmaking some of >> >the time. > > Hardy is careful about defining exactly what he means by "one plane" > and "two plane", and it isn't the definition that people commonly > assume. > > I don't remember his definition exctly, but I think it is something > like: in a one plane swing the shoulders rotate on the same angle > as the clubshaft, and in a two plane system system they differ. > Clary can quote it better, since he's studied it more. > > As long as you are willing to accept Hardy's definition, then there are > definitely one plane, and two plane swings. Hardy never pretends > that, in his definition of a one plane swing, that the clubshaft stays > in the same plane, mathematically speaking, throughout the swing. >
From: blakestah on 24 Aug 2006 07:01 Tiger is not in the "Hogan" position. It requires the right elbow be maintained very close to the same spot on the chest throughout the back and down swing - unitl the right arm begins to straighten near impact. Hogan used to practice with his upper right arm nearly motionless relative to his chest. That single action forces the rest of the arms to come pretty close to the right ballpark. Tiger lifts his a little away from his chest and holds the club a little higher, but he is not far off. It is a very intuitive tendency to want to lift the hands away from the plane of the chest near the top of the backswing, I wouldn't refer to the swing teachings of the greatest ball-striker of all time, the single most influential teaching book in the history of golf, as a "fad". As Hogan notes, the one-plane swing is very non-intuitive and requires much practice. His book was published in 1957, nearly 50 years ago, and is still a dominant force in teaching golf! Arnie and Jack and Trevino and Tiger have all come, and Hogan's book still stands as the best teaching book. The fundamental problem is biomechanical. If the arms are not working close to parallel to the shoulders, then the speed ot the downswing becomes critical. Too fast and your arms can't keep up and you slice like Mickelson at the US Open. Slow down and the arms come through and you hook. The swing is much less sensitive to the downswing drive if you have the hands lower, and the right arm close to the chest. Because then if you push harder with your hips, your arms and hands move faster ON THE SAME PATH. If the hands are high on the backswing, the harder you drive through the ball, the more the ball will slice. The timing needs to be carefully controlled, golfers often compensate by holding their hands abnormally closed at grip and at the top of the backswing. A series of matching compensations. It can work reasonably well, but there is another way that works better. And when I say "one plane swing" I am referring to the mostly perceptual connotations used by Hogan, not strictly speaking geometry... -PA Birdie Bill wrote: > glfnaz wrote: > > "David Laville" <dlaville(a)worldnet.att.net> wrote in message > > news:r01qe25thr6ngvhm75of60hhilh1vlb1r8(a)4ax.com... > > > On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:59:39 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz(a)qwesttrash.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >>>>There is no two-plane swing. > > >>> > > >>> Yes there is and the majority of tour players use it. The club starts > > >>> on the plane of the club at address and shifts to a plane that runs > > >>> through the right shoulder position at the top.> David Laville, G.S.E.M. > > >>> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > > >>> TB-8982 > > >> > > >>I'd like to argue that there is no one plane swing, there is no 2 plane > > >>swing, there is only a swing that has the club go through *multiple > > >>planes* > > >>as it elevates above parallel. > > > > > > This is a more precise way of looking at it; The club doesn't swing > > > on a plane, it swings on more if a curved path as Dr. Mann pointed > > > out. I agree with him on this because I've analyzed countless swings > > > when I was learning all this TGM stuff and if you put a dot on the > > > clubhead frame for frame and then connect the dots they don't form a > > > straight line, they follow a slight curve. > > > > > > Planes are named according to the reference points on which they are > > > set. As an example, the hands plane would be a plane that was resting > > > on the hands, a shoulder plane would be a plane resting on the > > > shoulders. If a player is said to be using a shoulder plane the curve > > > of the clubs path will pass through the shoulder. If the player is > > > said to be using an elbow plane the curve of the clubs path will pass > > > through the elbow. > > > > > > So to sum it up, the club follows a path and that path will pass > > > through a point the plane uses as a reference. > > > > > > > > > David Laville, G.S.E.M. > > > The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > > > TB-8982 > > > > I've followed your earlier comments on this as well, then studied the > > geometry from TGM. > > In A Nutshell: > > If the base of the plane is a straight line, then.... > > Then the higher the arms elevate the club, the shaft * must * become > > steeper to continue to point to the baseline of the plane. > > bg > > Yes, but... you don't have to swing that way. At my GolfTec lesson > they showed me a swing of Tiger's at the 3/4 position where the > shaft is parallel to the shaft address plane. That's what Haney > teaches, and I guess Tiger has jumped onboard. I'll see if I can > dig up a photo.
From: blakestah on 24 Aug 2006 07:01 Tiger is not in the "Hogan" position. It requires the right elbow be maintained very close to the same spot on the chest throughout the back and down swing - unitl the right arm begins to straighten near impact. Hogan used to practice with his upper right arm nearly motionless relative to his chest. That single action forces the rest of the arms to come pretty close to the right ballpark. Tiger lifts his a little away from his chest and holds the club a little higher, but he is not far off. It is a very intuitive tendency to want to lift the hands away from the plane of the chest near the top of the backswing, I wouldn't refer to the swing teachings of the greatest ball-striker of all time, the single most influential teaching book in the history of golf, as a "fad". As Hogan notes, the one-plane swing is very non-intuitive and requires much practice. His book was published in 1957, nearly 50 years ago, and is still a dominant force in teaching golf! Arnie and Jack and Trevino and Tiger have all come, and Hogan's book still stands as the best teaching book. The fundamental problem is biomechanical. If the arms are not working close to parallel to the shoulders, then the speed ot the downswing becomes critical. Too fast and your arms can't keep up and you slice like Mickelson at the US Open. Slow down and the arms come through and you hook. The swing is much less sensitive to the downswing drive if you have the hands lower, and the right arm close to the chest. Because then if you push harder with your hips, your arms and hands move faster ON THE SAME PATH. If the hands are high on the backswing, the harder you drive through the ball, the more the ball will slice. The timing needs to be carefully controlled, golfers often compensate by holding their hands abnormally closed at grip and at the top of the backswing. A series of matching compensations. It can work reasonably well, but there is another way that works better. And when I say "one plane swing" I am referring to the mostly perceptual connotations used by Hogan, not strictly speaking geometry... -PA Birdie Bill wrote: > glfnaz wrote: > > "David Laville" <dlaville(a)worldnet.att.net> wrote in message > > news:r01qe25thr6ngvhm75of60hhilh1vlb1r8(a)4ax.com... > > > On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:59:39 -0700, "glfnaz" <glfnaz(a)qwesttrash.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >>>>There is no two-plane swing. > > >>> > > >>> Yes there is and the majority of tour players use it. The club starts > > >>> on the plane of the club at address and shifts to a plane that runs > > >>> through the right shoulder position at the top.> David Laville, G.S.E.M. > > >>> The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > > >>> TB-8982 > > >> > > >>I'd like to argue that there is no one plane swing, there is no 2 plane > > >>swing, there is only a swing that has the club go through *multiple > > >>planes* > > >>as it elevates above parallel. > > > > > > This is a more precise way of looking at it; The club doesn't swing > > > on a plane, it swings on more if a curved path as Dr. Mann pointed > > > out. I agree with him on this because I've analyzed countless swings > > > when I was learning all this TGM stuff and if you put a dot on the > > > clubhead frame for frame and then connect the dots they don't form a > > > straight line, they follow a slight curve. > > > > > > Planes are named according to the reference points on which they are > > > set. As an example, the hands plane would be a plane that was resting > > > on the hands, a shoulder plane would be a plane resting on the > > > shoulders. If a player is said to be using a shoulder plane the curve > > > of the clubs path will pass through the shoulder. If the player is > > > said to be using an elbow plane the curve of the clubs path will pass > > > through the elbow. > > > > > > So to sum it up, the club follows a path and that path will pass > > > through a point the plane uses as a reference. > > > > > > > > > David Laville, G.S.E.M. > > > The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor > > > TB-8982 > > > > I've followed your earlier comments on this as well, then studied the > > geometry from TGM. > > In A Nutshell: > > If the base of the plane is a straight line, then.... > > Then the higher the arms elevate the club, the shaft * must * become > > steeper to continue to point to the baseline of the plane. > > bg > > Yes, but... you don't have to swing that way. At my GolfTec lesson > they showed me a swing of Tiger's at the 3/4 position where the > shaft is parallel to the shaft address plane. That's what Haney > teaches, and I guess Tiger has jumped onboard. I'll see if I can > dig up a photo.
From: Larry Bud on 24 Aug 2006 08:19 bruce wrote: > has anyone changed over from a 2 plane swing to a one plane swing, and if so > how long did it take to change, and what benefits did you notice? Plus what > are some of the negatives do you have about the 1 plane? > > I just changed over a week ago, and i love it. With all due respect, one cannot just "change" their swing like a lightswitch. Some of the smallest moves take weeks and several lessons to embed, and you're talking about a major change.
From: blakestah on 24 Aug 2006 10:05
Dave Clary wrote: > On 24 Aug 2006 04:01:08 -0700, blakestah(a)gmail.com wrote: > >I wouldn't refer to the swing teachings of the greatest > >ball-striker of all time, the single most influential teaching > >book in the history of golf, as a "fad". As Hogan notes, the > >one-plane swing is very non-intuitive and requires much > >practice. His book was published in 1957, nearly 50 years > >ago, and is still a dominant force in teaching golf! Arnie > >and Jack and Trevino and Tiger have all come, and Hogan's > >book still stands as the best teaching book. > > Yet it has been shown through video analysis that Hogan didn't > actually do what he says in the book in many cases. > Misinterpretation. Hogan didn't use video analysis. Trying to interpret his teachings through video analysis is not a straightforward application. For example. Hogan says keep the upper right arm near the chest, with the elbow neither sliding up or rearward relative to the chest wall, on the backswing, and to keep the two elbows as close together as possible during the backswing. These two very clear teachings lead to a swing plane that is notably flatter than the glass pane concept in the book. Of course Hogan also says flatter than the pane of glass is better than more upright, but he was clearly a lot flatter. Some video for entertainment... http://www.beauproductions.com/golfswingsws/benhogan/main.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMme63rleag http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT88wW2cJ0 In the last one you can also note Gary Player making some of the same analogies about the position of the right elbow and the increased consistency that comes with it in Hogan's position. Don't shatter the glass! -PA |