one plane verus 2 plane swing
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From: Ernie on 25 Aug 2006 02:57 In article <1156457911.637375.29500(a)m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>, "larryrsf" <larry(a)delmardata.com> wrote: > Ernie wrote: > > In article <1156433698.882583.84980(a)m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, > > "larryrsf" <larry(a)delmardata.com> wrote: > > > > > bruce wrote: > > > > has anyone changed over from a 2 plane swing to a one plane swing, and > > > > if so > > > > how long did it take to change, and what benefits did you notice? Plus > > > > what > > > > are some of the negatives do you have about the 1 plane? > > > > > > > > I just changed over a week ago, and i love it. > > > > > > Someone should ask Allen Doyle what plane/s he uses. Ridiculous. > > > > > > Just swing the clubhead through the ball and over something a foot of > > > so in front of the ball-- there is no need to even think about what is > > > happening behind you-- If the ball doesn't go straight you either > > > missed the ball or the object in front. Slow down and make it happen > > > and every ball will go straight. "Not rocket science" as they say. > > > > > > http://www.megspace.com/sports/moetown/videos/doyle_clip.html > > > > > > larry > > > > So how long do you think this one-true-secret will last, Larry? And why > > should we believe you when you inevitably say "forever" when you've said > > the same about so many other one-true-secrets previously? > > > > And while I'm asking questions, how is it that you claimed to have shot > > a 76 at the beginning of the month, but actually posted a 78? And are > > the scores that IDC shows *actual* scores, or the score adjusted after > > ESC? From what I can see, they are post-ESC, so the chances are that > > your 78 was actually even higher... > > I certainly hope so!!!! At this stage my handicap is dropping fast--I > shot 78 again yesterday-- That previous score was posted by a buddy-- > and I am not going to change it! This is bad enough, I am already > down to 9 with trend lower... gonna be hard for me to win any beer! So let's get this straight, shall we? You came in here and claimed to have shot a 76. And apparently that was a lie. Was the 78 you just mentioned actually an 80, or was it even higher? > > But I am having fun hitting it straight, hitting ALL the fairways and > most of the greens. If I could putt I would be shooting scratch! Why would I believe this when you've already lied about your scores? > > Regarding "secrets," I suspect this latest, the target in front of the > ball, is simple an evolution of my learning experience-- over 5+ years. > One thing builds on the previous accomplishments. Likely my swing > today is a culmination of everything past-- and especially of my effort > over the last few weeks to teach myself to swing slowly enough to > consistently create the divot that makes the ball go straight. > CONSISTENTLY. My ONLY swing thought on the course lately has been to > create divots with irons or 3w and to create a particular clubhead path > with driver. Let the ball go where it will-- I am just an engineer > swinging a golf club. Works for me. But not well enough to shoot the 76 you claimed to have shot. > > Today, however, I played a hard singles tennis match-- it was fun to > endeavor to make my tennis racket continue through the ball on the > desired ball flight path-- sound familiar? The two sports are very > very related. Jack Nicklaus was smart to play tennis during his > championship golfing years. What has this to do with golf? Oh, wait. You like to pretend that you and real golfers have something in common...
From: blakestah on 25 Aug 2006 08:06 David Laville wrote: > On 24 Aug 2006 04:01:08 -0700, blakestah(a)gmail.com wrote: > > >The fundamental problem is biomechanical. If the arms > >are not working close to parallel to the shoulders, then > >the speed ot the downswing becomes critical. Too fast and > >your arms can't keep up and you slice like Mickelson > >at the US Open. Slow down and the arms come through > >and you hook. > > Speed has nothing to do with hooking or slicing. How can the pros hit > their irons varying distances with accuracy if according to your > theory varying downswing speed will produce hooks and slices? > > Something tells me if you vary your downswing speed this is the > results you get and therefore assume it's a universal truth. No, it follows in a straightforward way from the mechanics of the two plane swing. The arms work in a plane that cross the plane of the chest. The rotation of the torso will work to push the arms away, and to prevent the clubface from closing. Players spend years working out compensating strategies to match an inward pull of the arms, and clubface close, to the countering forces the torso applies. This is one reason why many 2 plane swingers have very closed clubfaces at the top of the backswing, and use right hand grips so strong you can see their right palm at address. And it can work, very well indeed. Jim Furyk is a great example that this strategy works well enough for a touring pro. But if the same player mistakenly turns the hips harder than he was planning to turn them, he will push-slice. And if his hip turn is less hard than he was planning, he will pull-hook. This especially comes up in tense pressure situations. I've found myself hitting 1-2 clubs stronger than I expect under intense enough pressure. The adrenaline gets going, and all of a sudden Phil finds himself 50 yards sliced from the fairway losing the open in the most horrible way possible - because the tendency to push-slice from the torso turn, and the compensation from the arms, become unmatched. This same point was made in a less clear way by Gary Player in his comparison of Tiger (old Tiger swing) and Hogan in the youtube video link I posted. He speaks about keeping the elbows close to the body on the downswing... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT88wW2cJ0 When the arms are lower in swing plane, the torso movement works to move the arms into the appropriate position. The harder the hips turn, the better. The harder you hit with the right hand, the better. It does not lead to a hook - it leads to another 10 yards on a drive. "I wish I had three right arms so I could hit it even further." -PA
From: larryrsf on 25 Aug 2006 12:10 Howard Brazee wrote: > On 24 Aug 2006 15:03:58 -0700, "larryrsf" <larry(a)delmardata.com> > wrote: > > >And that is the reason many, many very good players refuse to look at > >their swings on video. > > How many current Tour players are among this "many, many"? Who cares? I really think what "current tour players" do -- or seem to do as we watch them is almost completely irrelevant to amateur golf--especially high handicap amateur golf. Those young guys are so far ahead of us that they can't even relate to our problems--nor can they offer workable solutions. It is like a professor in advanced calculus trying to teach first grade numbers or counting or whatever they call it. He would be helpless to help the children learn. Back to basics. I think what most amateurs, even low handicappers, need to realize is that achieving accuracy and consistency in golf is no different than achieving those same effects in other sports. If we want to throw a strike in baseball, we back off the effort level to get it there-- we DON'T throw it as hard as we can! Same in bowling, tennis serving, basketball free-throw shooting, and dozens of other skills. We learn that we must moderate our effort level to achieve accuracy. Only in beginner golf does the student stupidly exert 'all out' effort trying to achieve maximum distance-- and of course he pays the price in wildly inaccurate shots-- slices and pull-hooks, mishits, etc. Some never learn to quit doing that. Target line accuracy in golf is very simple-- it requires that the club be synchronized with our body at impact, i.e. that we return the club to the ball like we took it away. The clubhead will be aligned to the target and the ball will go straight. But we start mishitting and hitting them off the target line as we increase the effort level to the point that we cannot maintain synchronization-- we lose muscle coordination in our effort to achieve distance. I suggest everyone go to the range and hit any club enough times to learn what effort level is too much-- that is when they start going sideways and/or you start mishitting the ball. Find the effort level in which you can hit 10 crisp shots straight. Below that is the effort level you should play if you want to hit fairways and greens. If the distance you achieve with that level is shorter than your previous expectations, so be it. Simply adjust-- use longer irons as necessary-- but NEVER swing so hard that you lose sync-- and look stupid again. Remember that really good golfers have learned this simple principle-- and when they see a high handicapper swing out of his shoes and hit it up into the houses or into the lake-- he thinks, 'stupid.!' Larry
From: AKA Gray Asphalt 2 on 25 Aug 2006 17:50 <blakestah(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:1156507585.634130.138560(a)i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > > David Laville wrote: >> On 24 Aug 2006 04:01:08 -0700, blakestah(a)gmail.com wrote: >> >> >The fundamental problem is biomechanical. If the arms >> >are not working close to parallel to the shoulders, then >> >the speed ot the downswing becomes critical. Too fast and >> >your arms can't keep up and you slice like Mickelson >> >at the US Open. Slow down and the arms come through >> >and you hook. >> >> Speed has nothing to do with hooking or slicing. How can the pros hit >> their irons varying distances with accuracy if according to your >> theory varying downswing speed will produce hooks and slices? >> >> Something tells me if you vary your downswing speed this is the >> results you get and therefore assume it's a universal truth. > > No, it follows in a straightforward way from the mechanics of > the two plane swing. > > The arms work in a plane that cross the plane of the chest. The > rotation of the torso will work to push the arms away, and to > prevent the clubface from closing. > > Players spend years working out compensating strategies to match > an inward pull of the arms, and clubface close, to the countering > forces the torso applies. This is one reason why many 2 plane > swingers have very closed clubfaces at the top of the backswing, and > use right hand grips so strong you can see their right palm at > address. > > And it can work, very well indeed. Jim Furyk is a great example > that this strategy works well enough for a touring pro. > > But if the same player mistakenly turns the hips harder > than he was planning to turn them, he will push-slice. And > if his hip turn is less hard than he was planning, he will > pull-hook. > > This especially comes up in tense pressure situations. I've > found myself hitting 1-2 clubs stronger than I expect under > intense enough pressure. The adrenaline gets going, and all > of a sudden Phil finds himself 50 yards sliced from the fairway > losing the open in the most horrible way possible - because > the tendency to push-slice from the torso turn, and the > compensation from the arms, become unmatched. > > This same point was made in a less clear way by > Gary Player in his comparison of Tiger (old Tiger > swing) and Hogan in the youtube video link I posted. > He speaks about keeping the elbows close to the > body on the downswing... > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfT88wW2cJ0 > > When the arms are lower in swing plane, the torso > movement works to move the arms into the appropriate > position. The harder the hips turn, the better. The harder > you hit with the right hand, the better. It does not lead > to a hook - it leads to another 10 yards on a drive. "I wish > I had three right arms so I could hit it even further." > > -PA If you are quoting Hogan wit the 3 right hands thing, I'm not sure that the "hit it even further" part is from him and it might have been "hands" instead of "arms". I gotta look it up.
From: David Laville on 25 Aug 2006 19:06
On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 02:11:17 GMT, "bruce" <buyede(a)shaw.ca> wrote: >i spent 3 days at the golf range, hitting 100 balls each time, and played >two rounds so far. i ended up scoring 86 and 87, while normally i would >shoot 93 or 95. On my second round i hit 10 of 14 fairways, and 8 of 18 >greens, before changing i would hit an average of 3 to 4 fairways, and the >same amount of greens. if this can take 7 to 8 strokes a round off that >would be totally awessome. Did you improve as a result of the swing or because you spent 3 days at the range practicing? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor TB-8982 |