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From: Howard Brazee on 25 Aug 2006 20:25
On 25 Aug 2006 09:10:01 -0700, "larryrsf" <larry(a)delmardata.com>
wrote:

>> >And that is the reason many, many very good players refuse to look at
>> >their swings on video.
>>
>> How many current Tour players are among this "many, many"?
>
>Who cares? I really think what "current tour players" do -- or seem
>to do as we watch them is almost completely irrelevant to amateur
>golf--especially high handicap amateur golf.

I can use as playing role models, the good players who are members of
my Men's Club, or players I see on TV. Having someone on the
Internet name "many, many very good players" that I haven't had a
chance to see isn't very useful. Different people have different
needs, strengths, and weaknesses.

From: blakestah on 26 Aug 2006 06:59

David Laville wrote:
> On 25 Aug 2006 05:06:25 -0700, blakestah(a)gmail.com wrote:
>
> >No, it follows in a straightforward way from the mechanics of
> >the two plane swing.
>
> Yes, please tell me all about the mechanics of the two plane swing.
>
> >The arms work in a plane that cross the plane of the chest. The
> >rotation of the torso will work to push the arms away, and to
> >prevent the clubface from closing.
>
> Two errors; 1) the turning torso does not control the path of the
> arms.

Take two straight sticks and couple them with a joint.

Position them at right angles to one another.

Then grab one of the two stick and rotate it fast.

The other stick will rotate at a fixed angle relative to the first.

Now, reposition the two sticks with a 45 degree angle between them,
and ACCELERATE the rotation of the first stick.

What does the second stick do?

Is there a torque transfer from the first stick to the second
that will alter the angle between the two? This is actually
a pretty good intro physics test question...

A much more complicated version of this same process
occurs in the "2 plane" swing. Changes in torque at the hip
alter the arms and closing of the hands in ways that
follow from the mechanical way the hipbone is connected
backbone, the backbone connected to the shoulder bone,
etc.

My cousin is a1 handicapper, he has a pronounced 2
plane swing, with a very strong right hand at address.
Still shoots under par about 25% of the time on very
tough golf courses. Repeatability in swing is always
the key to good scoring through the full shots.

Hogan simply believed, as I do, that the lower position
of the hands, and less space between the right elbow
and the torso, make achieving any desired level of
repeatability a lot easier. But the lower hand position and
more compact arm-torso are very non-intuitive. The
tendency to stand over the ball with a wedge and want
to make the clubhead go in a vertical circle aligned with
the projected ball flight is strong.

Gary Player is a multiple major winner - I would think
he knows SOMETHING about a golf swing as well...the
exact errors he points out in Tiger's swing are the same
ones Tiger addressed in his swing change, and you can
see the differences in current video - the difference from
Tiger to Hogan is quite a bit smaller now.

-PA

From: AKA Gray Asphalt 2 on 27 Aug 2006 01:06

[snip]

> Take two straight sticks and couple them with a joint.
> Position them at right angles to one another.
> Then grab one of the two stick and rotate it fast.
> The other stick will rotate at a fixed angle relative to the first.
>
> Now, reposition the two sticks with a 45 degree angle between them,
> and ACCELERATE the rotation of the first stick.
>
> What does the second stick do?
>
> Is there a torque transfer from the first stick to the second
> that will alter the angle between the two? This is actually
> a pretty good intro physics test question...
>
> A much more complicated version of this same process
> occurs in the "2 plane" swing. Changes in torque at the hip
> alter the arms and closing of the hands in ways that
> follow from the mechanical way the hipbone is connected
> backbone, the backbone connected to the shoulder bone,
> etc.
>
> My cousin is a1 handicapper, he has a pronounced 2
> plane swing, with a very strong right hand at address.
> Still shoots under par about 25% of the time on very
> tough golf courses. Repeatability in swing is always
> the key to good scoring through the full shots.
>
> Hogan simply believed, as I do, that the lower position
> of the hands, and less space between the right elbow
> and the torso, make achieving any desired level of
> repeatability a lot easier. But the lower hand position and
> more compact arm-torso are very non-intuitive. The
> tendency to stand over the ball with a wedge and want
> to make the clubhead go in a vertical circle aligned with
> the projected ball flight is strong.
>
> Gary Player is a multiple major winner - I would think
> he knows SOMETHING about a golf swing as well...the
> exact errors he points out in Tiger's swing are the same
> ones Tiger addressed in his swing change, and you can
> see the differences in current video - the difference from
> Tiger to Hogan is quite a bit smaller now.
>
> -PA

I resolved to quit getting into swing theory discussions because if I really
knew anything I'd be breaking 70 at my home course. I'm not close. Not close
enough to say how close I'm not. I'm also a wannabe comedian ... however ...

it is a revelation to me that the collor bone seems to have so much to do
with the swing. It is at an angle to the spine which is with the right side
lower and at the top the left side is lower (lefties are used to having to
translate) ... left side is lower in relation to the spine. There was a long
discussion about spine position here on RSG and this did not come up much.


From: AKA Gray Asphalt 2 on 27 Aug 2006 01:38

That didn't make much sense, I know, but the idea is clear in my mind. Did
anyone get anything out of what I posted about the collar bones?


From: David Laville on 27 Aug 2006 13:21
On 26 Aug 2006 03:59:03 -0700, blakestah(a)gmail.com wrote:

>My cousin is a1 handicapper, he has a pronounced 2
>plane swing, with a very strong right hand at address.

Hold on a second, aren't you the same guy who said this a few days
ago:

:On 23 Aug 2006 09:39:53 -0700, blakestah(a)gmail.com wrote:

:There is no two-plane swing.

So how can your cousin have a two-plane swing, a pronounced one in
fact, if you said there is no two-plane swing?

>Still shoots under par about 25% of the time on very
>tough golf courses.

Right, me to.

>Hogan simply believed, as I do, that the lower position
>of the hands, and less space between the right elbow
>and the torso, make achieving any desired level of
>repeatability a lot easier.

Really, where does he say this?



David Laville, G.S.E.M.
The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor
TB-8982
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